Doctors strike

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It's shocking what The government is doing to OUR services, been listening to the doctors today on lbc and this truly is appalling!

I work a lot with the NHS and know first hand how hard these people work!

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/11/junior-doctors-face-forced-contract-after-rejecting-jeremy-hunts-final-offer

http://www.lbc.co.uk/how-can-this-be-good-for-patients-shelagh-grills-jeremy-hunt--124870

***Be aware there is a lot of foul language in the comments - free speech n all that.

:popcorn

 
Duck,

I have just spent a day "working" for the NHS, and if the job doesn't come off I won't get paid.

There are jobs in the NHS that are not as highly stressed as others, the same as any company/organisation/enterprise.

However, the people I work with are very patient oriented.

It's a worry for me, to a certain extent, as the work I do offers a cost saving for the NHS, but, due to other changes, it may diminish, and the Trust want me to do more and more with them, but, I might be working my way into a diminishing "market".

The front line medical staff are regularly taken to hell & back.

They are done over by their senior management and government daily.

I saw something very appropriate on Facebook earlier.

There have been other similar comments.

Suffice to say, as I am not going to make many political comments, there are certain persons in this country who are NOT in this with the rest of us, and who have a vested interest in privatising public services.

Public sector workers who actually help the public directly, save lives, take away our rubbish, keep our street lights on, provide counselling to the bereaved, what do they get in the way of thanks, NOTHING, they get more work for less pay, and worse employment conditions and less benefits.

What do politicians get, it seems that they get to arrange for their own companies to take public services into private control and make even more money out of it, on top of their obscene salaries, almost criminal expense claims, their companies tax avoidance which is never queried, and a year on year pay rise.

Nice.

Guy Fawkes party anyone?...

 
Well here is my take on today's events.

Imposing this new pay deal on Junior doctors in England, will solve the shortage of doctors issue in Wales, Scotland and NI, and will create a massive problem in England.

 
the most stupid thing I've seen for along time is that twot Hunt trying to make out the doctors will be better off. As if some of the best brains in the UK can't calculate that they are getting a pay cut :shakehead

 
This all comes down to numbers. Unfortunately there are not enough day and hours in the week to serve all the people that need caring for. So what do we do?  We are already employing doctors and nurses from all over the globe (remember the number 1 arguement for staying in the EU is our NHS would fold). So we cannot employ any more. So what is left is a 7 day NHS or the really really 'racist' option of limiting net migration. No one can even think about the second choice for fear of being labelled a racist so we are left with 1 option. A 7 day NHS. 

In an attempt to prevent over working the government want to limit the amount of hours a doctor can work a week. Seems pretty sensible to me. All high risk industries do this. They are also saying that Saturday no longer warrants anti-social pay. This has also been a long time gone in the private sector. 

It it seems to me the ONLY arguement the doctors have is to do with pay. They are upset that their chance to earn major overtime pay will be cut.  Because instead of the current maximum of 92 hours it will be limited to 72 hours. Standard pay will see up to an 11% increase in pay (see attached).  

This is is not a great position to be in but the country is bursting at the seams and something has to give. 

image.png

 
Lies, damned lies and statistics.

I'm not saying that what you have posted Essex is any of the lie categories, but, they are statistics.

Which are the 3rd kind of lie, because they can be made to show anything you want because it is down to the generator of the statistics to draw the comparisons, etc.

Now the next thing is, premium pay, just because it has been hammered out in the private sector, TBH, I would like to see it returned, 1.5x Sat am, 2x Sat PM, 2x Sunday, 1.33(r)x double days, 1.66(r)x nights etc.

This has been taken away from the working man to line the pockets of big business who then in turn implement tax avoidance schemes, so the tax income to the UK Govt has been raped away into the pockets of the super rich.

To the detriment of the general populous.

Simply wrong, because the super risk simply avoid paying their way in society and lump this onto the working classes, who have no means to avoid it, and as their wages are reduced due to such things, their tax income to the Govt is reduced, thus the funds to support public services are reduced, thus it's a viscous circle.

I HATE IT.

We still charge premium rates for weekend working, at the client request, if the client doesn't like it, tough, go find some other muppet to do the work.

Our customers don't seem too keen to do that, the work simply gets done during normal hours.

I simply don't work for less than I ask for, end of.

They can find someone else, but, they don't.

Now if every company did the same, and the employees, did the same, then the clients would simply HAVE to pay, the wages would go the employees the tax would be paid and, the Govt would have a greater income, however, as the majority of MP's have shares and interests in companies that provide services which they can make stupid money out of, they simply support any way for these companies to increase profits, thus increase their income.

NOTE carefully, I have NOT mentioned ANY party, why?...

Almost ANY MP has such interests, no matter what the party.

 
The one thing that gets me about all this is this....

If you remember the time when they went on strike the first time.... the BBC were interviewing a Lady doctor about it all.... she said that the strike was all about patient care and absolutely nothing  to do with money...

Fast forward to this week and it seems that it's all about the money

Where we are in North  Wales we have had 2 doctors surgeries tell the NHB that they won't be extending their contract when it runs out so all the GP care for over 20,000 people will now have to go back to the NHB..... at the moment they can't get new doctors into the area "on contract" however there are a few locums creaming it in at almost x2 the rate of a contracted doctor,,,,,,,,,, and why wouldn't they...... this kind of thing needs to stop IMHO

 
Something else that has slipped under the radar, come April public sector workers are going to get hammered with a 1.4% increase in NI contributions with the employers getting a 3.2% increase........yep in real terms that's a pay cut.

Explains why areas of public sector are being forced to make cuts such as the Saturday pay for docs.........It will be the back room dept's that will get some thining of numbers next.

I predict more "we are in it together" rhetoric from No 10 in the coming weeks/months

 
hmmmmm, going back to previous political arguments, to all those who voted Tory, all I can say is 'I told you so'. Rampant Thatcherism is back!

The government will use this as an excuse to push further privitisation

Those figures Essex are based on basic pay, what Hunt isn't saying is that by the time you take out the overtime / antisocial hours money the doctors are actually worse off. Now of you want people to work the weekends on flat money, then trying to make out they are better off really doesn't help. Personally I'm surprised a contract along these lines wasn't implemented years ago.

 
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Don't we all work talk about a basic pay. Before overtime when we talk about saleries?  

 
should do, but the doctors work very regular overtime / weekends shifts, so it's not just an occasional event ergo, it becomes apart of their regular income. It's not like they are on massive money in the first place. I has always assummed doctors are on like £70k a year minimum, in which case I wouldn't be as sympathetic.

 
Hum... my misses is a midwife. Her 12 or 13 hour shifts are regularly 14 or 15 and there is NO OVERTIME for her profession.

Extra "bank" shifts are paid at the lowest rate for her "band" so her hourly rate is less than her contracted hourly rate.......... BUT the pension will be GREAT!

 
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Big mistake Binky,

No one should ever work out their wages on overtime, no matter how regular it is,

Hundreds, if not thousands of polis lost their houses in norn iron due to this mistake, and the banks lending them.money on it,

They had been making tens of thousands a year on overtime during the troubles, 

Then the 'peace' agreement was signed and everyone went on basic pay, mortgage payments couldn't be made, houses repossessed all over and house prices collapsed, 

Don't blame Thatcher for everything, 

,,,,,

But, then again, you seem to think she is to blame for global warming and the famine in Africa too, :|

 
should do, but the doctors work very regular overtime / weekends shifts, so it's not just an occasional event ergo, it becomes apart of their regular income. It's not like they are on massive money in the first place. I has always assummed doctors are on like £70k a year minimum, in which case I wouldn't be as sympathetic.
It is actually very generous what they pay newly qualified junior doctors - as they can do very little on their own. You can consider their first year in hospitals as their last year of very basic training - suddenly the starting salary is looking quite generous. They also get a lot of NHS money for their training - there should be a pay back clause if they decide to qualify and leave the country.

@binky- you hit the nail on the head when you say unsocial hours are "not an occasional event". Why should they be paid more? I'm sat typing this at 3.20am because I'm a night person. The regularity of work at all hours means every hour is just another hour worked. If we had them in hospital 9-6 every day and then expected them to come in additionally OOH then they should get extra pay (and I agree at a higher rate).

Our hourly rate and fees for procedures are the same whatever the time of day or night. Why should a 30 minute job cost more at 1am or 1pm? We do charge a supplement for attending simply to encourage farmer to call in the day (£20). The additional cost is greater for small animals to reflect the inefficiency and time taken to go back to the surgery and see the animal, clean up and go home. What can be achieved in a 10 minute consultation in the day can easily eat an hour at night or on the weekend. That is what the additional fees cover.

The doctors and the BMA have too much power. Look what happened when the GPs negotiated better pay and could abandon their patients OOH. I do believe the new contract is fair. Don't believe all the spin. The world has changed - doctors need to accept that. Do you think the people in Tesco earn more for the Sat afternoon shift compared to the Wed afternoon?

 
Tesco do pay for shifts - don't ask me the details, but the young lad I've just taken on used to work for them. The junior doctors are working these hours to cover the short falls in staff levels, the additonal recompense is also useful to them to pay student debt, To be frank I don't know the full ins and outs of the arguments, but I do know I like the NHS, the staff are brilliant (mostly) and governmant ministers tend to talk lettuced (I apply that too all parties). What I do know, is that it takes an awful lot to get medical staff to go on strike, ergo the doctors must have very real reasons for the dispute.

Thatcher actually recognised global warming as an issue. Thatcherism is short hand for free market capitalism, an economic ideology, think Keynes is responsible for that idea. Thaycher was an advocate of this philosophy, I am not, as you may have noticed, I think it is too short termist, though, like all ideas, some bits are good, some bits are lettuced.

 
It is actually very generous what they pay newly qualified junior doctors - as they can do very little on their own. You can consider their first year in hospitals as their last year of very basic training - suddenly the starting salary is looking quite generous. They also get a lot of NHS money for their training - there should be a pay back clause if they decide to qualify and leave the country.

@binky- you hit the nail on the head when you say unsocial hours are "not an occasional event". Why should they be paid more? I'm sat typing this at 3.20am because I'm a night person. The regularity of work at all hours means every hour is just another hour worked. If we had them in hospital 9-6 every day and then expected them to come in additionally OOH then they should get extra pay (and I agree at a higher rate).

Our hourly rate and fees for procedures are the same whatever the time of day or night. Why should a 30 minute job cost more at 1am or 1pm? We do charge a supplement for attending simply to encourage farmer to call in the day (£20). The additional cost is greater for small animals to reflect the inefficiency and time taken to go back to the surgery and see the animal, clean up and go home. What can be achieved in a 10 minute consultation in the day can easily eat an hour at night or on the weekend. That is what the additional fees cover.

The doctors and the BMA have too much power. Look what happened when the GPs negotiated better pay and could abandon their patients OOH. I do believe the new contract is fair. Don't believe all the spin. The world has changed - doctors need to accept that. Do you think the people in Tesco earn more for the Sat afternoon shift compared to the Wed afternoon?
1st point - If YOU are happy to call 1am on a Saturday night a "normal" working hour then that is fine for YOU. But most people count the weekend and late evenings as premium time. I have had to visit an out of hours vet with my dog in the past and I can assure you that there was more than £20 added to the 30 mins that we were there. The point being I was more than happy to pay for this out of hours service rather than risk waiting until normal hours.

that covers your 2nd point too really - which brings us nicely to the final point - I love the rhetoric that all unions = bad....What did they ever do for us ?

1. Encouraged the creation of a "weekend"

2. Encouraged the creation of holiday pay

3. Encourages "family time" to be recognized

4. Encourages collective agreement

5. Encourages safe working practices

If I get a cab after midnight any day of the week I expect and indeed im more than happy to pay a premium - this reflects my appreciation that the cab driver and backroom staff have sacrificed a "normal" family life to allow me to have a drink or whatever other reason I may have for not wanting to drive - infact I often tip more after hours for any service - I appreciate that the people providing the service are actually human beings some people live to work....but most work to live....

The world has changed - go over to the capitalist utopia which is the usa and find out how much as a percentage of a persons wealth must be put aside for health. Their doctors would laugh at anyone who tried to challenge their fee's and rightly so...that is the system they work under. Have a good close look at that system because I believe anyone under 20 years old in this country had better get their head round it as the way we are headed that will be the system here for them in the coming years.

Last point no aimed at your post but has been posted above - Training and education in this country was/is traditionally free - it is a scandal that it is now not free (paid by the tax payer before anyone mentions it). If people are unhappy about a doctor graduating and buggering off to another country maybe we should stop doing the very same thing to all the countries in the world where we rape them of their graduates......Very one way thought processes going on here me thinks.

Just for clarity in case you have not guessed - I fully support the junior doctors AND thin Hunt should resign due to the amount of times he has been caught lying during this conflict with the BMA - the latest being the statement that all nhs managers had written to him in support of this new contract...We now see the 80% of those very same managers have distanced themselves and have categorically said that they have told the HS no such thing. Hunt could learn a important life lesson here - If you are going to lie then make sure you have a very good memory and make sure to have mechanisms in place to back up your BS. I did like Hunt's book on how the nhs is our longest mistake and how we should follow that world class USA model.......genius.

 
I hate this normalisation of additional hours.

Why should employees be forced to work unsocial hours, and be away from their families for little or no remuneration?

Those of us who run our own companies, or are self-employed, have made that choice, sometimes it isn't much of a choice, but we made it.

Now again, back to paying for public services.

As I have already said, when the working "man" was paid a fair wage and premium for unsocial hours, overtime, weekends etc. they paid additional tax on that which paid for public services.

However, the massive global corporations have put a stop to that, cut the premiums to maximise their profits, which they don't pay tax on in the UK, ergo, less money for public services.

The NHS is being privatised in front of our eyes and we can't see it.

The Govt is assassinating the NHS with rhetoric.

Yes it has its inefficiencies, yes it could do with some modernisation, yes it could do with improvement.

However, it is fundamentally free at point of use.

I for one don't want to go back to the dark ages and the Victorian era with employees enslaved.

However, I also don't want to go back to the days of massive Union power, there does need to be a balance.

The trouble is, the balance is tipping in the favour of the massive global companies and the super rich.

Sounds like history repeating itself to me, with the Landed Gentry (aka the Global Companies) virtually enslaving the working man again.

Watch this space...

 
The Trade Unions are now so diminished that there seems little to stop governments dictating to us all, If you look at the break up of the school system with 'acadamies' there by breaking up the power of the NUT, you can't help feel the NHS is next. About the only instituition I can think of that hasn't been broken up yet is the Law Courts.

This government keeps harping on about it's madate fron the British People, yet only 37% of the electorate voted for them, that's 63% didn't ie the majority......

Normalisation of weekend working isn't good for society in general, families need time together, it builds social cohesion.

 
The BMA have too much power and need putting in their place. There was no option other than to impose these contracts.

If you get an NHS bursary for your training then there ought to be a payback clause if you leave having not worked a set number of hours. Yes we attract doctors from all over the world because we have one of the best health services in the world. I am very supportive of the NHS and the staff. I am also mindful as a taxpayer that we need to get good value for our taxes - paying anyone a huge premium on their salary who does a job they knew required 24 hour working is stupid.

Without any debate:

  • Hospitals need to run 24 hours per day with ALL services that may be needed in an emergency
  • More people die on weekends due to lower staffing (of all grades and types)
  • Buy using the facilities more wisely you can get more patients through the system with the same number of staff
It is stupid that a Saturday or Sunday daytime is not normal working hours. It is time to get rid of the stupid Sunday trading hours. I don't care whether you all like it, but society runs 24 hours per day. Actually having some time off work in the daytime on weekdays is amazing for productivity.

It's about working smarter, not harder. The solution isn't just the junior doctors - it does involve the whole NHS. This is just the start. What the health service really needs is starting again with a blank bit of paper. The government realises that throwing more money at it, is not just the solution.

 
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