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Manator

Could you rewire a domestic without RCD protection

Can a domestic house be rewired without rcd protection  

  1. 1. Can a domestic house be rewired without rcd protection

    • YES
      7
    • NO
      19
    • At least one circuit will require RCD
      6
    • At least two circuits will require RCD
      4
    • Apache's option not sure, or want to wait for others to choose, so I can have a laugh later
      2


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Sidewinder

Does no one on here understand a rhetorical question...

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Canoeboy
Does no one on here understand a rhetorical question...

No, I have trouble remembering what happened an hour ago, bit like a goldfish

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Andy™

but isnt a goldfish's memory only 6 seconds, not 1 hour?

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Canoeboy

[quote name='Andy

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spinlondon
Does no one on here understand a rhetorical question...

This is applicable to this thread because......

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Manator

I think rhetorical in this instance means just that, I am not for one minute suggesting that any domestic should be designed to exclude the need for RCD protection, however if required it could be done. By RCD protection I mean the actual circuits and not individual outlets. As I said in the poll statement this could be a learning excersise for all of us, I do not pretend to know all the regs off by heart, but I do know that the regulations one way or another allow you to design any circuit without the "statutory" constraints. Providing your peers will, if needed, agree.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 21:53 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:50 ----------

Sorry guys it would appear that I had inadvertantly closed the thread, not my intention. Its open now and my post will be posted sunday after the poll is closed

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Andy™

Sorry guys it would appear that I had inadvertantly closed the thread

i think Admin needs to arrange more training courses for you mods...

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springcrocus

Congratulations, Manator, in initiating a thread that has produced some worthwhile discussion. Most of the longer threads on the forum tend towards banality and triviality as time goes on. This one has got us all thinking, without too much sidetracking, and has produced more than the normal amount of sensible discussion.

I'm happy to :coat if the majority disagree.

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Manator

Whilst privvy to any discussion, my rights and priviledge as a moderator are foregone, therefore within reason you can all react as you would to any other poster, as long as its of course friendly in nature. I do think this has been a very good excersise, its not one that any decent electrician would put in place, but it did and does get us all thinking outside the box.

I am glad I posed the question, it has allowed me to think, and lets be fair who thinks when rewireing a house?

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Canoeboy
Whilst privvy to any discussion, my rights and priviledge as a moderator are foregone, therefore within reason you can all react as you would to any other poster, as long as its of course friendly in nature. I do think this has been a very good excersise, its not one that any decent electrician would put in place, but it did and does get us all thinking outside the box.

I am glad I posed the question, it has allowed me to think, and lets be fair who thinks when rewireing a house?

Me

Dont do houses

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Manator
Me

Dont do houses

One of those reasons I excluded you I suppose

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 23:45 ---------- Previous post was made at 22:23 ----------

Ok the poll is closed and the votes are in and the winners are? Well let

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spinlondon

My initial response was to point out that even 12V circuitry requires RCD protection in special locations.

However, I then realised that you are quite correct.

BS7671 allows us to make departures from the Regulations, if we as the designer consider the departure offers the same degree of safety as would be achieved by compliance with the Regulations.

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SPECIAL LOCATION
However, I then realised that you are quite correct.

Whats new? :C

This is normal for a large percentage of your post...

Which quite possibly 98%+ of forum members have already sussed out..

Waffle & argument some may claim

or

in a paraphrase of one of those well known home moving programs

"Contradiction.. Contradiction.. Contradiction"

Some may say the evidence is within the "Reputations" & "Likes" counts

from other members.....

but I couldn't possibly comment:|:innocent]:)

P.S.

I voted Yes!;);\

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spinlondon

Specs, you may not realise this, but I don't actually give two hoots about reputations & likes. If I did, I would probably just agree with everyone irrespective of whether they are actually correct.

However, just as something to do, I actually worked the percentage ratio between the number of posts we have both made, and the number of likes we have both received. Yours works out 21% and mine as 19%. does that mean you are liked 2% more than me?

I also don't particuarly care if people disagree with my point of view. Of course it would be nice if people could actually back up their arguments with some form of evidence, and it would also be nice if they could also make their arguments without resorting to disparaging and insulting comments.

I would like to think that my views at least get people to consider the Regulations and perhaps even become more familiar with them.

Yes if you take the question literally, you can wire a domestic house without the use of an RCD. The answer is obviously yes.

However if you actually take on board Manator's origional post, he indicates that the poll is based on the current Regulations.

As such the only way the answer the answer can be yes, is if a departure from BS7671 is made.

I'll leave you decide whether departing from the Regulations would be complying with them.

Just as I'll leave to you the posting of disparaging comments.

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SPECIAL LOCATION
To be honest, this is rather a pointless discussion, as no one is prepared to put forth a scenario where they believe RCD protection can be omitted, whilst still complying with BS7671.
Specs, you may not realise this, but I don't actually give two hoots about reputations & likes. If I did, I would probably just agree with everyone irrespective of whether they are actually correct.

However, just as something to do, I actually worked the percentage ratio between the number of posts we have both made, and the number of likes we have both received. Yours works out 21% and mine as 19%. does that mean you are liked 2% more than me?

I also don't particularly care if people disagree with my point of view. Of course it would be nice if people could actually back up their arguments with some form of evidence, and it would also be nice if they could also make their arguments without resorting to disparaging and insulting comments.I would like to think that my views at least get people to consider the Regulations and perhaps even become more familiar with them.

Yes if you take the question literally, you can wire a domestic house without the use of an RCD. The answer is obviously yes.

However if you actually take on board Manator's origional post, he indicates that the poll is based on the current Regulations.

As such the only way the answer the answer can be yes, is if a departure from BS7671 is made.

I'll leave you decide whether departing from the Regulations would be complying with them.

Just as I'll leave to you the posting of disparaging comments.

Three more contradictions immediately jump out!

I thought this was a point less thread... didn't someone say that?

and for some one NOT interested its a lot of calculations.. (could of just quickly glanced at the green dots!?;))

Actually I don't give too hoots about people who don't back up many of their arguments...

reminds me of someone waffling on about what scheme members certificates had written on them, and how the schemes applied their rules..

But then said oh but I am not a member of any scheme.. so I dont know!!

Hang on..

coming back to the old Contradiction.. Contradiction.. Contradiction.. theme again..

I wonder why???

Which bring me back to my earlier post..

Whats new? :C

This is normal for a large percentage of your post...

Which quite possibly 98%+ of forum members have already sussed out..

Waffle & argument some may claim

or

in a paraphrase of one of those well known home moving programs

"Contradiction.. Contradiction.. Contradiction"

Some may say the evidence is within the "Reputations" & "Likes" counts

from other members.....

but I couldn't possibly comment:|:innocent]:)

P.S.

I voted Yes!;);\

I think its as Sidewinder implied some just cant grasp the context of Manators OP and question..

Now that was a better way to get people to consider the regs IMHO!

:C

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Canoeboy

How many of you test an RCD to find its not that old and fails the test ?

How many new rcds have failed the test ?

How many RCD's fitted ever have the test button pressed by the owner/occupier ?

Too much reliance seems to be being placed on the RCD that will save all...

Manator mentions a 12V lighting circuit, a properly designed SELV Supply for lighting would far exceed any 230V (or 230/LV with those little transformers) lighting circuit on an RCD

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ianmacd

Well, as expected, a farce. Putting RCD sockets in is still having an RCD so you have just proved its not possible to rewire a domestic premises without RCD's.

Disregarding manufacturers requirements for RCD protection is also very bad. Just because its not in the special location does not mean you can ignore them. You do not know the reason the manufacturer has specified the need for an RCD so how can you argue its not needed.

And as for the 'like for like' suggestion, that only applies when the cable is damaged and has to follow the same route which may not be possible for a variety of reasons.

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Manator

I do not think it is a farce, if I really wanted I could eliminate the use of RCD socket outlets providing I had a very good reason for doing so and was no less safe if it was excluded. The point of the excersise was to look at the design and see if it can be done, a very expensive rewire could if desired be totally without RCD even on sockets. If you look at any regulation there is often no black and white you can use this to verify your designed circuits.

I have just fitted a fibreoptic lighting system at a very great cost, I do not like it but the clients are over the moon. At no time did I imply to ignore manufacturers instructions about the use of a RCD, indeed if I had to design a house without RCD I would insist on the shower to be fed from the boiler and advise against the use of electric.

All I can say is that it got me thinking, and it looks like some others thought about it.

The question is an exersise, nothing more.

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kme

I think you provided a thought-provoking discussion Manator. Irrespective of the "its a waste of time / pointless / farce" comments, it DID throw up quite a few interesting posts, and I imagine a few members have actually got their books out and looked at them over the course of the thread, which can only be a good thing - I think we`d ALL agree on that.

Canoey raised an interesting point about the RCD effectiveness, as far as end-user testing (or lack of) is concerned. It remains the single biggest cause of RCD failure. The question is, how do we combat it? Customers, as a whole, are NEVER going to intentionally disconnect their installation, no matter how much we "educate" them on the benefits / necessity. They`ll just forget to do it - its human nature, unfortunately.

Does a question care if it is rhetorical? ( don`t answer, that is a rhetorical question itself).

Thanks Manator - I understand the reasons for posting the thread, even if others didn`t quite "get it".

KME

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sellers

I did get this thread but sadly I was expecting an answer, I couldn't find a way of combating the need for an rcd on a socket intended for general use and was looking forward to learning a way in which it was possible. So a bit of a let down on that part.

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Manator

One interesting part of any regulation is the completion of any EIC, why do you think there are boxes for departures and deviations IF we are not allowed to depart from said regulation.

There have been various audits into the effectiveness of RCD's, when apparently faulty ones have been removed and tested on the bench about 2% worked without any other reason other than the removal and transit rid the mechanical action of any problem. Another 90% worked when the rcd was subject to testing. Conclusion from this was that user lack of regular testing caused the rcd to fail when needed most, however they also concluded that removal of any rcd was not a good idea, and the percentage of failures was in total very small.

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binky
My initial response was to point out that even 12V circuitry requires RCD protection in special locations.

However, I then realised that you are quite correct.

BS7671 allows us to make departures from the Regulations, if we as the designer consider the departure offers the same degree of safety as would be achieved by compliance with the Regulations.

So are you saying 12v lighting needs RCD or not? Can't see how regs say it does - if 240V is not in the room, it isn't in the special location ergo no RCD.

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spinlondon

BS7671 requires circuits of special locations to be RCD protected. There is no exception for ELV.

The term used is circuits 'of' special locations, not circuits 'in' special locations.

So yes I am saying that 12V lighting would need an RCD, in order to comply with BS7671.

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Manator
I did get this thread but sadly I was expecting an answer, I couldn't find a way of combating the need for an rcd on a socket intended for general use and was looking forward to learning a way in which it was possible. So a bit of a let down on that part.

Sorry Sellers, indeed my original intention was to provide each regulation and then break it down and discover by its use an alternative. If we take socket outlets for instance one reason why a socket outlet has to be 3m from a bath or shower is because of the normal flex lengths of appliances, if we use this 3m rule in a kitchen for example we could theoretically install our sockets far enough away from a door for example so that the socket can not be used outdoors, (if you follow me so far).

Other sockets could in the same way be designated and labelled , a deviation or departure could then be placed on the EIC giving a detail of this. The regulations as they stand would allow this. I think some people are of the opinion that I would condone such instances, I do not, what my intention has been all along is for us to think of alternatives, so that the next time anyone did a minor replacement or works to any circuit, the client would not be expected to upgrade the whole installation to provide all circuits with RCD protection.

I personally have found the excersise very informative, interpretation of any given regulation is always subject to individuals.

As I have said in above posts there is no wrong answer to any question, and I would not for one minute advocate the exclusion of RCD protection.

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monkey5

as for testing the RCD with the test button, i always try to expain the importance of pressing it but most of the time they nod there head and you can tell there never going to do it as it means re setting the cooker/microwave/clock radio clocks! so i always finish by saying "when you change the clock forward/backwards by an hour it'll be worth pressing it then too". nearly everytime i get the reply thats a good idea. so hopefully even if its pressed only twice a year thats got to better than never aint it.

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