Third Party Certification

Good morning,

I have the qualifications (2382 and 2391) from a previous life, but have never practiced as an electrician (I was a surveyor before retiring, now I'm a BTL landlord).There does not seem to be any reasonable way of being able to self-certify notifiable work on my own properties short of setting up as a full time electrician, which seems odd to me.

The best deal seems to be STROMA, and I notice their package comes with 'Third Party Certification' (for 2391 holders) and I'm wondering whether there might be a niche business opportunity to get around the problem above, and at a cost much less than council building control offices charge (£310.50 here in Corby). I'm wondering whether there are enough electricians out there that mostly work on commercial jobs, or part time electricians that mainly do perhaps building maintenance, plumbing, kitchen fitting, decorating etc. who might find it useful to have the occasional notifiable job certificated? Effectively this would be undercutting building control (but I'm not sure that would be difficult, the fees are pretty high).

Perhaps there are already people out there doing this work, in which case the niche would already be filled (perhaps you would let me know)?

It seems to me that I could make a viable part time business, maybe one day per week, certifying other electricians' notifiable domestic jobs that would justify investing in membership of STROMA, some liability insurance and getting my meter calibrated, so I could then legally certify jobs on my own properties (which is really what I want to do). I'm thinking that a flat fee of £150 would undercut the council by half, two half-day jobs per week would then generate about £15,000/year, which would make it just about worth doing.

Any comments (including telling me this is a daft idea, if it is) or ideas would be welcome.

Best wishes,

Alan

most electricians doing notifiable work are already registered, and those that aren't, well, it's your neck!

binky said:

most electricians doing notifiable work are already registered, and those that aren't, well, it's your neck!

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So you would be happy to sign off ANYBODIES work.

and you expect the dodgy characters to pay you £150,00 per cert - get real.

Madness

The vast majority of decent sparks are registered, sign off their own work, and don't get involved in much else, let alone signing any Tom, Dick or Harrys work??

Well, that is a couple of strong 'no' votes from Murdoch and Binky. Some good points and well made. What I am suggesting is no different whatsoever from what local council building control offices do at the moment, and charge £310.50 for. I'm just wondering whether there is a margin in undercutting them to subsidise my own professional fees and expenses. Are there any other comments, or should I shelve this as a daft idea?

Best wishes,

Alan

Daft idea......

the maths, logic and business plan are all flawed IMHO....

any person doing more than the odd one-off notifiable job will either be..

a) already registered as competent at self certifying their work.

b) worked something out with a man who can self certify and do a bit of an LABC notification fiddle.

c) will have spoken direct to the LABC about more appropriate fees as the LABC will not need to do an electrical cert, just the issue of Part P compliance. 

d) be ignoring Part P and any notification requirements and just do a job, no certs or paperwork re part P.

etc...

Most new business ventures...

or business expansions grow from an existing customer base  already purchasing some goods or services....

How many potential clients do you know of?

How often will they need work?

How much will advertising cost?

To sign off installation work, you will need more than just a pop round at the end to do a PIR..

you will also need to make one or more earlier site visits to check cables routss of concealed cables.

Guinness

othen said:

Good morning,

I have the qualifications (2382 and 2391) from a previous life, but have never practiced as an electrician (I was a surveyor before retiring, now I'm a BTL landlord).There does not seem to be any reasonable way of being able to self-certify notifiable work on my own properties short of setting up as a full time electrician, which seems odd to me.

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You find it strange that you would need to set up as an electrician to do the job of an Electrician????

I thought there was talk of 3rd party notification but that had been put on hold.  I thought there was going to be a different registration and entry requirements, and guidance of how the procedure would take place.

At the moment you can only to an EICR of another persons work, i didnt think you could use that to notify buiding control regards part-p.

I thought at the moment it is not possible to notify another persons work through a registration scheme. Whatever agreement you can get with local building control, is up to them.

I personally think that if there was the ability to notify and check of a 3rd persons work, it should be done by someone who is better then the average electrician, the checks and qualifications they have should be far greater then a regular electrician registered with one of the schemes.     A part time wanna be electrician should be the last person to check off other part time wanna be electricians work.

pewter said:

You find it strange that you would need to set up as an electrician to do the job of an Electrician????

I thought there was talk of 3rd party notification but that had been put on hold.  I thought there was going to be a different registration and entry requirements, and guidance of how the procedure would take place.

At the moment you can only to an EICR of another persons work, i didnt think you could use that to notify buiding control regards part-p.

I thought at the moment it is not possible to notify another persons work through a registration scheme. Whatever agreement you can get with local building control, is up to them.

I personally think that if there was the ability to notify and check of a 3rd persons work, it should be done by someone who is better then the average electrician, the checks and qualifications they have should be far greater then a regular electrician registered with one of the schemes.     A part time wanna be electrician should be the last person to check off other part time wanna be electricians work.

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actually I think it is only elecsa/niceic that have put 3rd party certs on hold. Don't napit advertise it now? (I could be wrong here...)

I think you last point is the key one though. Signing off others work would need someone at least competent to do condition reports, i.e. not someone with qualifications and no experience which is how the OP has described himself.

Having said that, if you can find a competent body that supports 3rd party signing off and they are happy to take you on then there is nothing stopping you........

Just had a look on the Nappit website and found this.

Can I carry out third party electrical testing & inspecting?

NAPIT membership includes third party inspection and testing as long as the member is fully qualified and has the relevant experience to carry out this service and is present at first & second fix. When completing the Electrical Installation Certificate, in the case of a 3-part certificate only the 'inspection and testing' portion should be completed, if using the NAPIT Electrical Certificate you should indicate in the 'limitations' section that the certificate does not cover design or construction. In each case the details of the installer should be included on the certificate.

Please note that this approach should not be used to notify work under Part P as this is not allowed. See the question & answer below. Members carrying out third party inspecting and testing must also have £250,000 of Professional Indemnity Insurance which is a separate policy from Public Liability.

Not allowed for Part-P building notification.  A multi signature form , which is nothing new.

To me it looks like the 3rd person notification is still on hold, and hopefully will never exist. NICEIC have said a couple times they do not want it to happen.

Just had a look at Stroma and found this

'Third Party Electrical Certification Expanding the Part P industryVerify and notify domestic electrical work. Stroma Certification’s Third Party Electrical Certification scheme means Part P registered electricians can offer a new service. Advertise your business and sell your electrical expertise. Reach more customers and certify other electrical work as professionally as you do your own.'

The way that is worded, seems like they dont have a clue.

'Expanding the Part-P industry' ???????????   does that sentence even make sense?

I wonder if they allow someone to notify another persons work to building control.?  or if they just offer a multi signature form for non notifiable works?

Stroma comes across as a bunch of amateurs / plumbers.

'Stroma Certification. Upskilling the electrical industryThird Party Electrical Certification is designed to further improve the skillset of Part P qualified electricians. Creating an industry-protecting partnership between you and your certification body.'
Upskilling ?????? dumbing down more like.

Part-P qualified ?????????  that must be the Part-P qualification people go on about??????   i must get one.

Those that do work and dont notify, will just carry on. Its only the home owner who gets in trouble anyway. I cant see those types (builders etc) suddenly deciding to pay someone else a few hundred £££s. They are usually doing the work to save every £1 they can, the cost of  getting someone else to check the work could make it more cost effective to get a proper Electrician.

pewter said:

Just had a look on the Nappit website and found this.

Can I carry out third party electrical testing & inspecting?

NAPIT membership includes third party inspection and testing as long as the member is fully qualified and has the relevant experience to carry out this service and is present at first & second fix. When completing the Electrical Installation Certificate, in the case of a 3-part certificate only the 'inspection and testing' portion should be completed, if using the NAPIT Electrical Certificate you should indicate in the 'limitations' section that the certificate does not cover design or construction. In each case the details of the installer should be included on the certificate.

Please note that this approach should not be used to notify work under Part P as this is not allowed. See the question & answer below. Members carrying out third party inspecting and testing must also have £250,000 of Professional Indemnity Insurance which is a separate policy from Public Liability.

Not allowed for Part-P building notification.  A multi signature form , which is nothing new.

To me it looks like the 3rd person notification is still on hold, and hopefully will never exist. NICEIC have said a couple times they do not want it to happen.

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So exactly what involvement do NAPIT play in this then?

ANY qualified electrician can do the inspection and test bit and fill in the inspection and test part of a 3 signature EIC, with the person(s) who did the design and installation signing the other parts.

That does not require one to be part of a competent persons scheme.

The one thing that the CP schemes is for is part Phee and they won't allow you to sign off others work for that.

Saw on a local "new sparks van" the other day

"Qualified and Approved to Document Part P of The Building Regulations"

Well, that is another qualification I must strive to achieve so my Customer Database can benefit from me Upskilling myself

What a load of twucking foddle!

Just obviously not qualified enough

I fail to see the fuss over 3rd party certification. To an outsider and keen DIYer it looks like you are trying to create a closed shop.

If your testing and inspection for a EICR is up to scratch then you should find dangerous faults - or is a condition report not worth the paper its written on? Can I trust that my electrics are safe or not when you have checked them?

It's is insanity that building control can inspect, test and issue a certificate, but a private competent electrician cannot. I appreciate BCO will want to see cable routes - there is no reason a private electrician couldn't insist on the same. 

The whole concept makes no sense to me.

Apache said:

I fail to see the fuss over 3rd party certification. To an outsider and keen DIYer it looks like you are trying to create a closed shop.

If your testing and inspection for a EICR is up to scratch then you should find dangerous faults - or is a condition report not worth the paper its written on? Can I trust that my electrics are safe or not when you have checked them?

It's is insanity that building control can inspect, test and issue a certificate, but a private competent electrician cannot. I appreciate BCO will want to see cable routes - there is no reason a private electrician couldn't insist on the same. 

The whole concept makes no sense to me.

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not far off the mark Apache, what we really want is full recognition of our professional status and training. I've been asked many times to cert others work, but when you start poking around you soon find these peoples work is mostly shite. Add to that what you can't see hidden in the fabric of the building and hey presto you have a situation whereby you aren't sure what you have EICed and are legally liable for 5 years. You can't get away with just doing EICRs and claiming the work as an inspection becuase for many situations it has to be an EIC. So in short it's a dodgy game.

Going back to the OP, because of what LBC charge any sparky doing more than few jobs a year gets registered, hence it's not really a particularly viable business, and the only non-registered works will be from the idiot brigade. Not always i know, I can think of a certain vet who knows more about electics than many people on this forum, but people with intelligence tend to be few and far apart :^O . It also has to be said, those keen to do their own electrics don't generally want to pay anyone to do anything!

Occassionally i do get involved in these matters, but ONLY if i know the person well, and supervise the whole installation - again this is rare as we mostly get phone calls after the work is done.

the person well, and supervise the whole installation - again this is rare as we mostly get phone calls after the work is done.

Or the more usual...."my electrician has emigrated/died/turned into a shirt lifter and moved to Brighton/grown a beard/become a plumber/promised NEVER To come back here again/disappeared"

All,are alternative ways of saying

Did it myself

Spark cannot notify

Builder did it

All based upon price I fear

Just saying

I think whether insurance companies will include third party certification in their professional indemnity cover will be crucial.

Signing that an installation is safe, subject to all the caveats that are in the limitations in an EICR is one thing.

Signing that a third party's installation complies with all aspects of building regulations and is safe, might not sit well with an insurance company. And it is their backing which would underpin the business model of a third party certification company.

There are inherent problems with third party certification. Reading through an installation certificate would show all the flaws that become apparent when doing so.

This is why the major players have dismissed the idea as being basically bad, and will not be advocating it as viable or indeed suitable.

Most electricians I come into contact with have no idea of what a signature actually means, when I explain it all becomes clear.

Your signature is an acceptance of liability, you become the primary target for any legal actions taken, and all for a few quid?

It is still unsure how in legal terms third party certification will be accepted. Some public institutions have openly dismissed the idea and will not allow such certification.

I see it as a dilution of the skills, a very bad road to go down and bad news for any suitably qualified electrician.

Here's a link to an article in the connections magazine from last year stating the NICEIC's and ELECSA's point of view

http://www.niceic.com/about-us/news/archive-2014#third

Is it not right that in some areas building control are already using scheme members to do the testing and certification under contract? I understood that to be the case.

Your problem is similar to my problem - perspective. If people ask me how lambing is going I start giving tails of the disasters I've had to fix. The guys out there lambing their own sheep are not on my radar. The homeowners who mess up and join all the red and black wires and things go bang then ring you. Lots of DIYers do things to a bloody good standard (I have a proper tester) and you couldn't necessarily tell that the work wasn't done by a proper electrician. You don't get called out to that. You are unaware it is going on and jaded by your skewed experiences.

But half the problem is that homeowners do things themselves to save themselves some money.... they're not exactly going to pay someone to certify that shower circuit that they've installed at an additional cost of £150........ Which incidentally might have been the cost to get someone in to do the job properly (& certified) anyway...

If it costs the same to inspect and certify as to do the job then you are taking the piss in what you charge to inspect and certify!

I fail to see any reason against this other than to protect your own income. I'd be happy paying a reasonable fee to reflect the work required to certify and keep work I did myself legal and above board. If you take the piss then people will just get on and do things anyway.

I certify cheese exports but I have to trust the factory did things properly.