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When Is An Emergency Light, Not An Emergency Light?


ProDave

Question

ProDave

When it has a running man sign in front of it. Or so I am told.

 

Our village hall has just had a "fire audit".

 

Above every emergency exit is a non maintained emergency light fitting with the green running man symbol showing the way to the exit, there are 4 of these in the main hall and others throughout the building.

 

According to the audit, these are not "emergency lights" they are "signs" so according to this audit there are no emergency lights.

 

The simplest "solution" is to fit another emergency light directly above each existing one with just a plain white glass front so it will be a "light" rather than a "sign"

 

But before I quote a price to do this, is the auditor talking bollox or has the hall been "wrong" for the past 15 years?

 

 

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kerching

I did not know that. Is it in BS5266 or somewhere else, if so where please

Yes it is

Not a clue where, i will have a look

Back shortly

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Evans Electric

bloody hell, looks like i do know something about electrics after all

Naw   You're being silly now !!! :innocent

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Evans Electric

As I understood it,   you have illuminated "SIGNS"  indicating the escape route,    and you have emergency light fittings .

My reading of it is ...a running man & a down pointy arrow sign above the door  but also an emergency light fitting to illuminate the area. 

An emergency fitting at every escape route corner ...change of direction ...steps....fire extinguishers .

 

Just looking through my Electrician's Guide to Emergency Lighting ,  which doesn't actually say that  there is a difference between a sign & a light .    With most of the light blocked by the green vinyl  I don't think you'd get the 1 lx   levels TBH.

 

I could look deeper  but not at this time of night .

.

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kerching

Deffo correct about man "left"......but typically cannot find it

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Evans Electric

I can't see anything about the man running left Kerch,  other than the man should be running in the direction the exit.

 

 

I can point out that only a 1 hour duration is required for non residential premises used for teaching , offices etc  and for industrial , & warehousing type premises  where it assumed the staff are familiar with the exit routes etc.

I found this out after fitting some of those floodlighting packs and upon testing , they only lasted for 2 hours  .  This turned out to be OK as it was  industrial premises.

 

Everything else is the usual 3 hour. 

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Sidewinder

PD,

It seems you are both right!

PM sent to you.

I think it's going to be down to interpretation of the words in the standards.

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ProDave

Thanks for the PM

 

I'll have a look later and see what my interpretation is.

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kerching

Thanks for the PM

 

I'll have a look later and see what my interpretation is.

can you check/confirm/shoot down in flames the "man left" for me please

I think I am losing the plot this morning

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I can't see anything about the man running left Kerch,  other than the man should be running in the direction the exit.

 

 

I can point out that only a 1 hour duration is required for non residential premises used for teaching , offices etc  and for industrial , & warehousing type premises  where it assumed the staff are familiar with the exit routes etc.

I found this out after fitting some of those floodlighting packs and upon testing , they only lasted for 2 hours  .  This turned out to be OK as it was  industrial premises.

 

Everything else is the usual 3 hour. 

 

I don't believe that is correct:

 

All batteries should last to their rated duration. So a 3 hour light fitting should last 3 hours.  So if these floodlights were rated at 3 hours but only lasted 2 how can you meet regulation 12.3 P15 'Luminaries tested and found to operate for their full duration'

 

Also your understanding of 1 hour or 3 hour is not correct.

 

A 1 hour duration is acceptable ONLY if the building is to be evacuated upon a power cut.  This will give more than enough time for most buildings to complete a full evacuation.  If the building is likely to stay occupied during a power cut then 3 hours is what it needs to be.  I don't know of many buildings that would evacuate following a power cut.  I would be surprised if that is in the fire risk assessment for a village hall and it is definitely not as clear cut as commercial/industrial is 1 hour and everything else is 3 hour.

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SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH

I think your being a bit harsh on Essex1. Your both right and both wrong, its all down to the wording. If Evans  Electric had said it was a 2hr duration fitting then it would have been ok, but if it was a 3hr fitting that only lasted 2hrs then that is a fail and Essex1  is correct. The same differences in a few posts here.


And still a fail even in a commercial premises where 1 or 2 hrs evacuation is needed.

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SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH

I have fitted many of those NM emergency 'car type'spotlights on a battery pack in warehouses etc & they sre designed for 1 or 2 hours only duration.

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Evans Electric

I see your point Slippery but it has already occured where I tested emergency fittings ( all fitted by me)  for the full duration last year .  All the little 8 watt jobbies did well over 3 hours ...... all the Twin Spot car spotlight ones did 2 hours .  

 

As the recommended duration is 1 hour for that place , to me it was a pass ...they met the required escape duration.    However I made my feelings known , via the wholesaler , to the manufacturers , I can do no more. 

 

As I remember , the manufacturers showed as much interest as the Waffen SS would in joining the Boy Scouts.

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That is fine as long as a building will be evacuated immediately after a power cut. The previous post be Evans is incorrect.

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ProDave

Well reading the documentation I am not a lot clearer about what is a sign and what is a light.

 

I am sure now that a hall needs 3 hours though not 1.

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Evans Electric

That is fine as long as a building will be evacuated immediately after a power cut. The previous post be Evans is incorrect.

Ah Mr Essex  be assured that if I thought that anything in my posts was not correct I would say so.   Or say that I'm not sure at least , rather than lead PD astray.

 

I have quoted from the IET  Electrician's Guide to Emergency Lighting , which clearly gives a 1 hour duration for the likes of industrial premises.   Fittings are obviously made to the higher duration standard  . ( Other than  some Twinspots  as Slippery has also discovered. )

 

That is fine as long as a building will be evacuated immediately after a power cut. The previous post be Evans is incorrect.

Ah Mr Essex  be assured that if I thought that anything in my posts was not correct I would say so.   Or say that I'm not sure at least , rather than lead PD astray.

 

I have quoted from the IET  Electrician's Guide to Emergency Lighting , which clearly gives a 1 hour duration for the likes of industrial premises.   Fittings are obviously made to the higher duration standard  . ( Other than  some Twinspots  as Slippery has also discovered. )

 

post-1408-0-03873200-1441654218_thumb.jp

Well reading the documentation I am not a lot clearer about what is a sign and what is a light.

 

I am sure now that a hall needs 3 hours though not 1.

The hall will need 3 hours Dave  I was talking generally about 1 hour durations.  

I'm not sure but I think you  need additional illumination additional to the EXIT ones.   

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"The overriding consideration for the duration is that it is sufficient for the escape strategy."

If the building is not going to be evacuated straight away how can a safe escape be made after the 1 hour window is up?

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Evans Electric

I suggest you ask The IET    Essex  we are all just the rank & file who are supposed to follow the regulations passed down from the mountain .

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Sidewinder

The FRA for the property will decide the evacuation time.

There is no other source for this information.

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I suggest you ask The IET Essex we are all just the rank & file who are supposed to follow the regulations passed down from the mountain .

"But that is what the Electricians Guide to Emergency Lighting said" really is not going to wash. This is why I said a design process should be undertaken which will take into consideration what the building use is and what the emergency procedure is. Without this you are peeing in the wind.

The FRA for the property will decide the evacuation time.

There is no other source for this information.

Bang on. This information seems to be lacking here.

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NozSpark

So is an emergency light in a domestic cellar an emergency light or is it functional?

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Sidewinder

The thing is Essex1, the only people who can undertake the FRA are those responsible for the building & it's FRA.

A spark can only go by the guidance that they are given from the likes of the IET, they cannot undertake the FRA unless they are trained, competent and insured to do such, which very few will be I suspect.

Hence the reliance, very understandably on the guidance given by the IET, which in the absence of an FRA from the duty holder, I suspect would hold water, as long as it was adequately explained.


So is an emergency light in a domestic cellar an emergency light or is it functional?

Why is it there?...

What is the specification of the light?...

Who specified it?...

Why did they specify it?...

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steptoe

Ive got a maintained light in my shed, above the door, do I need a running man sticker on it?  :C

but then it would be a maintained sign, so no good to see anything with,,,,,,,,,

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The thing is Essex1, the only people who can undertake the FRA are those responsible for the building & it's FRA.

A spark can only go by the guidance that they are given from the likes of the IET, they cannot undertake the FRA unless they are trained, competent and insured to do such, which very few will be I suspect.

Hence the reliance, very understandably on the guidance given by the IET, which in the absence of an FRA from the duty holder, I suspect would hold water, as long as it was adequately explained.

Oh I agree. Normally a fully compliant installation would be designed properly with communication with the fire officer and sometimes the local fire brigade if the building was deemed big enough. There is clear parts of all emergency lighting certificates asking has the design been carried out. This includes making alterations to existing installations. How can PD, for example correctly sign off the alterations he may well do and not confirm a design has been carried out to ensure compliance in it's entirety with BS5266?
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Sidewinder

Anyone can sign the design part of a certificate if they are competent to do so and in possession of adequate information such that they consider that their design is suitable and sufficient to comply with statute law and other requirements.

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Anyone can sign the design part of a certificate if they are competent to do so and in possession of adequate information such that they consider that their design is suitable and sufficient to comply with statute law and other requirements.

Anyone can sign the design part of a certificate if they are competent to do so and in possession of adequate information such that they consider that their design is suitable and sufficient to comply with statute law and other requirements.

That does not really answer the question.

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