Help needed for wiring 2 different ceiling roses

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Palmer James

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Evening guys,

I need help wiring 2 different ceiling roses, one has two lives and two neutrals, the other has 3 neutrals and 3 lives. I've tried lots of combinations with both but neither work. The 2 neutral/2 live rose has never switched on the light no matter what combination I try, I hope I have not broken it. Please can someone suggest a way of wiring these roses. I have tried to identify the switched live using a non contact voltage tester.

 
What you will have at each rose is a L&N in, A L&N out (one of them may not have that) and a brown/blue or a red/black down to the light switch.

Unfortunately you have done what SO many do, and not taken note of how things were before you took the old light fitting off, so now you don't have a clue which one is the switch drop.

Do any of them have sleeving on the black or the blue?

 
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On the two cable rose I suspect that you will have a live and neutral then the other cable will be a switched live and live feed. You could try. Red/browns connected to centre terminals of rose then the black/blue to the outer terminals separately. 

 
On the two cable rose I suspect that you will have a live and neutral then the other cable will be a switched live and live feed. You could try. Red/browns connected to centre terminals of rose then the black/blue to the outer terminals separately. 


and just take a guess at polarity... lets hope its not an ES fitting in there

 
Well this is where he will need to establish which black/blue is the switched live with his testing equipment (non contact volt stick), and correct his terminations if needed whilst identifying the switched live with a suitable piece of brown sleeving. 

Thankyou for the swift reminder Andy, saturbeerday and problem solving doesn't go well together!!

 
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the wiring looks fairly standard. one cable in each will be the switch, the others will be loop in & out.... find the switch, put them in the correct place then loop in & out into their terminals

you will need a continuity tester / multimeter to test the switch cable, the one you have linked to above will not work

 
Morning, 

I have asked to return the 17th edition series test meter, https://www.test-meter.co.uk/17th-edition-safe-isolation-kit-test-meter/,        and have bought a multimeter off Screwfix (https://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-mas830b-digital-multimeter-600v/75337?_requestid=46577).

Can these cheap £10 multi meters be used to make sure that live/neutral cables for higher ampage circuits e.g. 32A shower ring mains, etc. are safe?

 
no chance of a cheap multimeter telling you if its safe. you need a proper test kit for that and you also need to know how to use it and understand what its telling you

as for cheap, see post 4 in this thread




 
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FWIW, I wouldn't give that LAP meter space in my toolbox.

If you insist on purchasing a multimeter from DIY outlet such as Screwfix, buy a Fluke, Megger or a Kewtech.

At least then it will be IEC 61010 compliant.

They start at just over £66 inc vat.

It will also have some inbuilt safety features over and above the bare minimum that will keep you alive if the meter goes wrong.

However, multimeters are not the most suitable tool for testing electrical installations works as they don't have the required tests to comply with BS7671 and thus Part P of the Building regulations.

If you insist on purchasing from Screwfix then look at the same brands as I have named above.

Except that they don't sell Fluke MFT's.

The starting price for a meter that is suitable is £499.99 inc vat.

Once you have this and are competent in its use, then you will be in a position to start testing and fault finding on your circuit to ensure that it is safe and compliant with the requirements.

You might find that by the time you have bought the right tools to do the job safely, and learnt how to use them it may well end up cheaper to pay a competent person.

Once you have the test tools, you won't know what readings to be expecting and what is right or wrong.

 
I have said it before, I am not a fan of non contact voltage indicator sticks. They have their uses, but testing for dead is not one of them.

What the OP needs to do is locate which pair goes to the switch. With THE POWER OFF AND VERIFIED AS DEAD, test between each black and it's coresponding red until you find one reading very close to zero ohms. If none are close to zero, flick the light switch to the other position, and try again. Once you have found the light switch pair, confirm this buy turning the light switch on and off and confirm the reading goes from zero ohms to infinity.  then mark the black from that pair with red tape or preferably red sleeving.

Then you can connect the ceiling rose correctly.

+1 to quality test gear, I have two different Fluke meters I use for this sort of job, I would not trust anything else.

 
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Can these cheap £10 multi meters be used to make sure that live/neutral cables for higher ampage circuits e.g. 32A shower ring mains, etc. are safe?




From the questions you ask it does sound as though you have no idea how a basic light circuit works, or what particular tests are needed to diagnose a fault, or what type of test equipment is needed to carry out the tests. To verify a circuit is safe numerous visual checks, dead tests, live tests have to be undertaken. Then the test results obtained must be cross checked with maximum and minimum values permissible to comply with BS7671 wiring regulations. Even if you had the correct test equipment, it is quite likely you would be unable to correctly interpret the results you get if you did any tests.  You question is akin to me asking if I can verify my car with pass the MOT when all I have is a tyre pressure gauge.  (I could verify one small aspect, but be unable to check the bulk of what is needed). To be quite blunt lights are about as basic as any wiring becomes, Supply to switch to load back to supply. 10mins testing would quickly identify all of the wires and reconnect  them. If you can afford to waste £150+ on a tester that you do not understand, I would suggest the most economical solution for you is to get a competent person round who would probably fix both for less than half the price.

Doc H.

 
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Doc, kindly stop insulting me. I am asking advice, I know full well how a wiring circuit works and am only asking for your opinion. If you can't offer it without insulting me don't offer an opinion at all. 

 
Doc, kindly stop insulting me. I am asking advice, I know full well how a wiring circuit works and am only asking for your opinion. If you can't offer it without insulting me don't offer an opinion at all. 


I can assure you there are no insults intended in my previous post. The observations are all based around the information you have given in your posts, with your own words. If you know how a circuit works why did you say in post #1 "I've tried lots of combinations with both but neither work."?  And as you say you are asking for an opinion. My opinion is that a competent person would fix your problem in 10 minutes maximum (per fitting), as lighting circuits are very basic electrical control wiring. You gave a link to an inappropriate tester that you said you had purchased costing £179.94 including VAT (from the link you gave). I honestly cannot believe that any electrician would charge over £100 to just reconnect your lamps for you. As such my advice was the most economical and practical solution to your problem is to get a local competent person to visit to rectify you fault.

A person who knows how a lighting circuit works would have simply identified the supply cable, switch cable, (feed to any second light worked off the same switch if applicable), and the outgoing loop to the next light in the circuit (unless its end of circuit). After identifying each cable it is just a simple matter of connecting Supply to switch, Switch to load, Load back to supply.  Mentioning things such as the amperage of the circuit has no relevance whatsoever to identifying the correct connections at a light fitting. You logic sounds confused, and your understanding of how circuits work, and you method of trying random combinations, (as you mentioned in post#1), sounds potentially dangerous to me. Electricity can kill a healthy adult in less than half a second, anyone with the slightest understanding would not be "Trying lots of combinations" and switching the power back on to see if they work. 

Some people may not like the truth when they ask a question and may try to imply they are being insulted. But the basics of how electrical circuits work hasn't changed and you are the one who has posted the details about how much, or how little, you understand about circuits, test equipment and how to prove something is safe and compliant with BS7671. Without insult I still think the safest and cheapest solution to your problem is to get someone in. Just randomly trying wires can also result in welding switch contacts, (or burning them out), so the switch doesn't work. e.g. random connections could end up with the switch being wired as a direct short circuit across the supply. this method is NOT recommended and is a very dangerous and an incompetent method in my opinion. 

If you do not like my advice or opinion, that is something you are perfectly entitled to do. But please do not suggest I am insulting you when making observation based around the facts you have given. The content of your posts do not suggest anyone who understands fundamental electrical principles.

Doc H. 

 
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It's a shame that people feel they will get ripped off for £00's if they call a professional to fix something like this.

If it was a job that I could do on my way to or from another job, I would hapilly fix it and just charge an hours labour.  What is it stopping the OP from admitting it is outside hi skill set and calling someone in?

 
Not seen a polarity conscious ES lampholder for quite some time. Can you still get them off the shelf?


It doesn't really matter:

"559.5.1.206 In circuits of a TN or TT system, except for E14 and E27 lampholders complying with BS EN 60238, the outer contact of every Edison screw or single centre bayonet cap type lampholder shall be connected to the neutral conductor. This regulation also applies to track mounted systems."

BS7671:2008+A3:2015.

You would have to know that they comply with EN 60238 first, and yes, I had one Sunday that was polarity conscious and brand new.

 
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