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Luke Moreland

8mm microbore rad not getting hot

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Luke Moreland
2 hours ago, Rob_the_rich said:

It is possible. OP can please report back whether the valve with no flow is a TRV, and if so whether there is any arrows on it showing direction of flow. Modern ones have 2 arrows showing flow can go either way. But if TRVs were fitted, I think it would have been mentioned.

Correct, No TRVs - however once this is all resolved, I will be fitting TRVs to other rooms in the house, one step a time :)

 

32 minutes ago, Doc Hudson said:

 

I would agree, at this point we need to confirm that all of the rest of the system is still working correctly, i.e. no secondary sludge or muck dislodged in other pipework. But if the system is still drained I would try using the rising main water pressure back up the pipe from the suspect valve position first. I'd probably knock up a temporary arrangement to make a direct connection that you can put a garden hose onto with a local isolator valve to control the flow.

 

Yep, when I return from work I plan to start with bleeding the upstairs rads as per @Rob_the_rich's advice.

 

Is it also worth draining the boiler? I had to do this when I first refilled the system to remove air.

 

The current state of the system is as follows:

  • New downstairs rad off wall and valves shut
  • All other valves fully open
  • Header tank full and not periodically filling
  • I am unsure as to the state of each rad, in terms of water level, certainly how I left it last night was that drain-off was fully open and system was not draining (I was attempting to refill/flush the air from the system)
  • I left the pump on max for a few hours, then put it to low overnight (it is mildy disturbing)

When I return from work my plan then is as follows:

  • Put drain-off hose back on and open
  • Bleed air from upstairs rads, to confirm circulation from header tank to upstairs rads

@Doc Hudson I have a hose from outdoor tap to 15mm which I've connected to my 15mm valve (which then gets compressed to 8mm on suspect pipe) and I delivered mains pressure to this pipe yesterday and it would not budge, atleast I didn't get anything out of my open drain, nor back into the header tank, water was not flowing.

 

Thanks,

Luke

2 hours ago, Rob_the_rich said:

Another thought, while it is drained, you could remove the valve and push some wire down the pipe. At least you will get an idea of how far away any blockage might be. Up to you whether you want to try this with a full header tank now, or after draining down again. Up to you.

I will see if I can grab something suitable on the way home later - i'll grab this https://www.toolstation.com/shop/p80592

Edited by Luke Moreland

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kerching

Not had time to read complete thread so what follows may already have been said

 

microbore is a pain in the rectum for blockages, get the slightest ding in the pipe and it almost closes the bore. Most prevalent where it comes through the floor up to the valves. Have you checked this for 'Hoover injuries'?

 

instead of air, which could cause the present water "to ,hydraulic".   Could you use mains water pressure to try and clear any blockage?

 

on one job we were trying to clear a blockage....ended up that someone had fitted a non return valve to ONE rad and it had jammed shut...just a thought

 

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Doc Hudson
34 minutes ago, Luke Moreland said:

 

I will see if I can grab something suitable on the way home later - i'll grab this https://www.toolstation.com/shop/p80592

 

I am quite sure that Toolstation item will no use on microbore pipe. It will be too big, its intended for 'waste' pipes e.g 32mm or 40mm plastic sink or bath type wastes, shifting blockages of hair, congealed soap etc.

 

Doc H.   

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Luke Moreland
27 minutes ago, Doc Hudson said:

 

I am quite sure that Toolstation item will no use on microbore pipe. It will be too big, its intended for 'waste' pipes e.g 32mm or 40mm plastic sink or bath type wastes, shifting blockages of hair, congealed soap etc.

 

Doc H.   

Just grabbed it after lunch, it's 6mm in diameter, it could be close?

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Rob_the_rich

I was thinking 2mm or 2.5mm steel wire. That 6mm snake might get stuck, and you don't want that.

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Luke Moreland
8 minutes ago, Rob_the_rich said:

I was thinking 2mm or 2.5mm steel wire. That 6mm snake might get stuck, and you don't want that.

I've got some coax cable which is pretty strong, around 2mm thickness, I could try that

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Rob_the_rich
3 hours ago, Luke Moreland said:
  • ....how I left it last night was that drain-off was fully open and system was not draining (I was attempting to refill/flush the air from the system)
  • I left the pump on max for a few hours, then put it to low overnight (it is mildy disturbing)

I would have shut off the drain point, the (air) blockage could have cleared at any time. You might be returning to a flood

Also, I would have switched off the pump after testing, it could damage it if running dry for an extended period.

These are some of the risks involved in trying to fix something over the internet.

If you had success before with getting rid of air in the system by draining the boiler, then try it. But since the pipes go up from the boiler, I doubt it will work, and any blockage might end up in the boiler. Might be best to leave it as a last resort

Edited by Rob_the_rich

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SPECIAL LOCATION

Only need to open each of the bleed nipples in turn at each of the high points in the system to get air out....

 

Water 'heavy' goes down...

 

Air 'light' comes up...

 

Bleed nipples on each radiator and at any strategic high points in the pipe runs..

maybe next to water cylinder if have one...

Screw bleed nipple on pump to clear and trapped in in pump..

etc......

 

Draining system will only put more air back in!

 

 

Never tried it....

but an electrical draw wire may go up the inside of 8mm pipe...

https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Hand+Tools/d10/Electrical+Tools/sd170/Draw+Tape+Nylon/p35379

 

But only as far as the first elbow!!!

 

:C

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Luke Moreland
1 hour ago, Rob_the_rich said:

I would have shut off the drain point, the (air) blockage could have cleared at any time. You might be returning to a flood

Also, I would have switched off the pump after testing, it could damage it if running dry for an extended period.

These are some of the risks involved in trying to fix something over the internet.

If you had success before with getting rid of air in the system by draining the boiler, then try it. But since the pipes go up from the boiler, I doubt it will work, and any blockage might end up in the boiler. Might be best to leave it as a last resort

Sorry I wasn't clear, I did close the drain point overnight. Did leave the pump running on low overnight though, my bad.

 

Going to start investigating now.

 

56 minutes ago, SPECIAL LOCATION said:

Only need to open each of the bleed nipples in turn at each of the high points in the system to get air out....

 

Water 'heavy' goes down...

 

Air 'light' comes up...

 

Bleed nipples on each radiator and at any strategic high points in the pipe runs..

maybe next to water cylinder if have one...

Screw bleed nipple on pump to clear and trapped in in pump..

etc......

 

Draining system will only put more air back in!

 

 

Never tried it....

but an electrical draw wire may go up the inside of 8mm pipe...

https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Hand+Tools/d10/Electrical+Tools/sd170/Draw+Tape+Nylon/p35379

 

But only as far as the first elbow!!!

 

:C

The draining of the system would be just to prove I have no blockage from top to bottom.

 

Going to bleed the high points now.

 

Thanks

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Luke Moreland

Ok.

 

There may have been a bit of user error yesterday Guinness Drain rad inlet was tapped off. Meaning the tests with air pressure and mains pressure surely wouldn't have worked.

 

All rads in house now free of air and full.

 

Should I repeat steps from yesterday? (With the knowledge of my drain route being open)

  1. Close all rads off - Open suspect pipe valve and shoot air in
  2. Close all rads off, drain system and shoot air in
  3. Close all rads off, drain system and apply mains pressure

Cheers,

Luke

 

Edited by Luke Moreland
more detail

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Luke Moreland

Attempted air into the open valve, it's not even a trickle anymore so I assume yesterdays antics clogged it somewhat further.

 

Currently tapped all working rads off, and draining the system. I will then apply mains pressure to the blocked pipe as per yesterday's plan, this time with the knowledge that the drain-off tap and radiator is completely open.

 

Attached is a nice picture of the chaos.

mains-in - Copy.jpg

Nb. That drain pipe is no longer going through the cat flap and is very much horizontal all the way to the drain :)

 

Edited by Luke Moreland

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Luke Moreland

I applied mains pressure to suspect pipe, no onward flush heard, it just took the mains and flow stopped.

To prove the setup I applied the mains to the other rad pipe (the non-blocked, free running) and heard the flow of water elsewhere in the system, I assume the drain pipe, hard to be certain with just myself to perform the task. - Now certain, did a quick dash to the drain pipe to see it flushing.

 

In summary, mains pressure to blocked pipe does not free blockage.

I tried 3-4 times of a few seconds, I will go do it some more.

 

Failing that I'm going to start poking the pipe with some wire.

 

Thanks for all your help thus far :signthankspin:

Luke

Edited by Luke Moreland

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Andy™

looks like a blockage in that pipe somewhere between the valve and manifold

 

you could also try leaving the water pressure there for longer. its possible that it is slowly pushing the blockage along the pipe but doesnt get far before you stop

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Luke Moreland
4 minutes ago, Andy™ said:

looks like a blockage in that pipe somewhere between the valve and manifold

 

you could also try leaving the water pressure there for longer. its possible that it is slowly pushing the blockage along the pipe but doesnt get far before you stop

I currently have a good few metres of wire down the pipe stabbing away at some resistance.

I'll measure it out of curiosity then try the mains again.

 

Update: 3.5m of cable, gave it a good stab, will flush with mains and see if it moves/clears.

Edited by Luke Moreland

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Andy™

what you stabbing it with? is it rigid enough to twist as you push it in?

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Luke Moreland
7 minutes ago, Andy™ said:

what you stabbing it with? is it rigid enough to twist as you push it in?

Nah, I'm stabbing it with 2mm coax cable, its got enough rigidity to force itself down the pipes but at the blockage it just crumples at my end.

 

I could try wrapping it around a nail at my end and using that to give it a deep stab but if I'm struggling to keep it rigid going in, I imagine its going to be rather ineffective at the blockage.

 

So I've tried mains again down it, no sign of moving. I've put the wire back down and it's at the same place, no sign of moving.

 

Any further ideas? I'm starting to think locating the manifold is my next step... It's not somewhere noticeable that's for sure.

 

coax - Copy.JPG

Edited by Luke Moreland

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Blue Duck

Coat hangers work well for this kind of stuff but I fear they may not be long enough.

 

Copper is probably too soft, you need some man grade steel wire!

 

:D

 

There: I contributed to the best plumbing thread ever!

 

:happybunny:

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Andy™

id expect the manifold to be under the floor upstairs

 

unlikely, but it could be a 90 bend that youre hitting. i say unlikely, because usually it would be bent and not an elbow fitted

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Luke Moreland
1 minute ago, Andy™ said:

id expect the manifold to be under the floor upstairs

 

unlikely, but it could be a 90 bend that youre hitting. i say unlikely, because usually it would be bent and not an elbow fitted

Close proximity to the hot water cylinder?

Hot water cylinder is located above the staircase, there is a cavity under it I should be able to get into, see if that indicates where the pipes heading down from the hot water tank go..

 

4 minutes ago, Blue Duck said:

Coat hangers work well for this kind of stuff but I fear they may not be long enough.

 

Copper is probably too soft, you need some man grade steel wire!

 

:D

 

There: I contributed to the best plumbing thread ever!

 

:happybunny:

I'm struggling for coat hangers as it is! I'll see if I can find the manifold, 5m of man-grade steel wire is plan B!

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Sharpend

If you are going in about 3.5m then you could quite easily be at the manifold. This is a ground floor rad with pipes going up wall to ceiling void. You may be better served lifting a bit of floor and locating manifold or the 3.5m point? 

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Andy™
41 minutes ago, Luke Moreland said:

Close proximity to the hot water cylinder?

 

no, just somewhere central to all the rads

 

when the heating did work, did you ever notice any of the floors upstairs warmer in a particular area? got a thermal camera lying around?

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Luke Moreland
22 minutes ago, Sharpend said:

If you are going in about 3.5m then you could quite easily be at the manifold. This is a ground floor rad with pipes going up wall to ceiling void. You may be better served lifting a bit of floor and locating manifold or the 3.5m point? 

3.5m puts it somewhere in the upstairs bedroom, maybe, going to quickly check there.

 

9 minutes ago, Andy™ said:

 

no, just somewhere central to all the rads

 

when the heating did work, did you ever notice any of the floors upstairs warmer in a particular area? got a thermal camera lying around?

Lifted the landing carpet to no avail, did find a handy cut out that I can use to re-do my lights though - bonus.

 

Never noticed upstairs flooring being warm, the downstairs hallway does get warm though in a very narrow part... Funnily enough I could probably source a thermal camera, I'll be lifting floorboards in the meantime.

 

Last check before calling it a night - upstairs bedroom for the manifold.

Luke

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Luke Moreland
27 minutes ago, Luke Moreland said:

3.5m puts it somewhere in the upstairs bedroom, maybe, going to quickly check there.

 

Lifted the landing carpet to no avail, did find a handy cut out that I can use to re-do my lights though - bonus.

 

Never noticed upstairs flooring being warm, the downstairs hallway does get warm though in a very narrow part... Funnily enough I could probably source a thermal camera, I'll be lifting floorboards in the meantime.

 

Last check before calling it a night - upstairs bedroom for the manifold.

Luke

Upstairs bedroom floor was a bigger task than anticipated. It's a tomorrow job. Will update tomorrow!

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Sharpend

Out of interest, is the bedroom at the furthest point from boiler? 

Many microbore systems will have 2 manifolds dependent upon the house layout, to minimise length of micropipe and aid with equal heat dissipation by allowing it to flow through a larger pipe for a longer distance. So try to think where the best position of the manifold would be if you were to pipe up from start.  

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Luke Moreland
17 minutes ago, Sharpend said:

Out of interest, is the bedroom at the furthest point from boiler? 

Many microbore systems will have 2 manifolds dependent upon the house layout, to minimise length of micropipe and aid with equal heat dissipation by allowing it to flow through a larger pipe for a longer distance. So try to think where the best position of the manifold would be if you were to pipe up from start.  

It would be the furthest point yes, far side of the room would be anyway.

 

Ill sketch together a house layout tomorrow.

 

Luke

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