12v LED celing light question

Hi, I am looking for some advice.

I have purchased a chandelier spotlight form Amazon, but looking at it I think it's compliance with CE is dubious (there is no sticker). It consists of a metal hoop which houses 8 metal GU11 LED spot fittings. The hoop hangs via thin cables from the metal ceiling rose. The cables look like steel but they have a plastic coating - so the fitting won't conduct from the metal hoop and spots to the rose. The rose is earthed. The cables coming form the hoop and spots are not. The hoop and spots are not double insulated.

If it wasn't for the fact that I searched high and low for the fitting in the first place, really like it, and I can't find anything else similar, I'd send it back with a stern letter (I will notify Amazon in any case).

So my first question is, am I right in thinking that this is potentially dangerous? That the hoop that holds the spot fittings should be either earthed or double insulated?

And my second question is whether my potential solution is doable and/or safe. I have found that it is possible to buy 12V G10 LED light bulbs. So my thinking is that I could buy these bulbs, fit a transformer in the ceiling, and then not need to worry about the fact that it isn't double insulated or earthed. Can anyone tell me if this is a doable solution - or have I missed something? And am I right in thinking that for 8 x 3W LED lights I'd need a 30W transformer (8x3=24, +20% =30ish)?

Sorry there is a one more question. I saw on another forum that if I fit my own transformer to this that it's then 'notifiable'  - which means I can't do it myself. Because I then haven't purchased it as an pre-assembled CE fitting (and of course it isn't CE approved anyway). Can anyone confirm this? I'd rather be safe so if I need to I'll get a certified electrician to fit it, but if I can save myself the cost safely it would be preferable. And even if I do get an electrician to fit it, I'd like to understand what I am asking them to do.

Any advice gratefully received.

Al.

the wiring form the transformer to the inidividual lamps (and the handing bits) will be SELV, so there is no way they could becoe live if there was a fault. the top metallic part witht he 230v would required an earth (which you said it has). swapping a light is not notifiable either

the transformer should be part of the fitting and built into it. any pics?

the class II  ratings of many metal lights is dubious in my opinion, but they sem to work fine and I'm no expert in ratings of fittings.

binky said:

the class II  ratings of many metal lights is dubious in my opinion, but they sem to work fine and I'm no expert in ratings of fittings.

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class 2 providing that the light has previously been wired in 2c 0.75mm flex thats just small enough to fit into the class 2 connector. in reality, you need to scrap that because the wiring doesnt fit into it then get an earth to it somewhere

Could you post a link to the original sales description. I'm confused as I've never heard of 12 volt GU10s.

Hello Geoff - I thought the same thing but after a few hours of researching and looking into possible solutions I found that they do actually exist. I could only find one UK supplier  and a couple that will ship from the US. I would probably purchase plenty of spares just in case though - as they might not be available in a few year's time.

I have pictures but I am probably being a bit dim because I can't work out how to add them here. The rose is 12cm diameter and 2.5cm deep, and houses the ends of the support cables as well as the wiring.

This is the link to the original listing: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B06ZYBMW9J/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 

good point on the GU10. they are mains voltage. MR16's are 12v though.

not enough detail / info in that linl. do you have any pics of the light and inside its connections etc?

I do Andy yes, but I'm not sure how to upload them?
 

You can get 12v G10s, but as above only one supplier in UK and I suspect they will be the only ones CE certified. I don't think they're used much in the UK - they seem to be more common in the US.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ultra-Bright-GU10-LED-COB-Spot-Down-Light-Lamp-Bulb-3W-12V-DC-AC-Warm-White/202422712625?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

But if these don't work I have some conversion options.
 

Okay I have worked it out. Photos below.

the wiring to the fittings internally will be double insulated, which is why there is no earth taken to there. GU10's are 230v. id imagne one of them going with a large bang and some smoke escaping if someone was to fit a chinese 12v one into a 230v circuit...

you should also be aware that if you modify the light to 12v and soemthing goes wrong its on your head. i assume you have calculated that the wiring will take the current (bearing in mind that it may need to carry 20x what its designed for now)

I agree with Andy. Looking at the pictures I would be 90% confident it is designed for mains use, with 230 volt lamps and  has double insulated fittings at the lower part. 

HOWEVER, you do have a valid complaint if the item is not clearly labelled with supply voltage information and a CE mark, plus appropriate documentation.

It does not as a complete assembly qualify  as class 2, (double insulated) because the ceiling rose has an earth, which ought to be green/yellow. (Another CE fail)

Sadly, this sloppy approach to CE conformity is not unusual especially with light fittings. If you are still concerned try to find a friendly electrician to cast an eye over it.

      Afterthought -  Screwfix do a nice line in LED GU10s in boxes of five and with a guarantee.

I know it should be double insulated Andy, but as I said in my initial post it is very obviously not.
As per the link above, there are 12v GU10s that are CE certified and I would buy these - I wouldn't buy them from China or the US.

People put 12v bulbs into 240v circuits all the time, with the correct transformer, and no fireworks. But that's why I'm posting here - to make sure I get this right.
Yes the wiring is 0.75mm throughout so ample for 8 x 3w bulbs I believe.

Sorry if I upset you somewhere along the line  mate - your last post has a distinct change of tone. Thank you for your help.

Geoff1946 said:

I agree with Andy. Looking at the pictures I would be 90% confident it is designed for mains use, with 230 volt lamps and  has double insulated fittings at the lower part. 

HOWEVER, you do have a valid complaint if the item is not clearly labelled with supply voltage information and a CE mark, plus appropriate documentation.

It does not as a complete assembly qualify  as class 2, (double insulated) because the ceiling rose has an earth, which ought to be green/yellow. (Another CE fail)

Sadly, this sloppy approach to CE conformity is not unusual especially with light fittings. If you are still concerned try to find a friendly electrician to cast an eye over it.

      Afterthought -  Screwfix do a nice line in LED GU10s in boxes of five and with a guarantee.

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I am fairly sure that if I complained I'd get a polite message asking me not to give them bad feedback and a refund. I have encountered this kind of thing before and we were aware when we bought it that this was a potential issue. As I said I will still report it to Amazon as not everyone is going to scrutinise a fitting as much as me.  But having searched  for something we liked decided to risk it. As I said if turns out that an electrician is the only option that's what I'll do. At the moment I'm not sure why the 12v option is actually undoable though -  either with 12v G10s, or converting to MR16s or similar. The only real problem I see so far is perhaps the issue of getting a transformer to fit within the rose.

that ebay link you posted... i suppose singapore isnt china... it also states AC 110/220v in the spec near the bottom

personally, id be sending the light back and getting a better one

I think I have covered the points that you raise in previous posts Andy. I'm not here for an argument.

Alan.O said:

You can get 12v G10s, but as above only one supplier in UK and I suspect they will be the only ones CE certified. I don't think they're used much in the UK - they seem to be more common in the US.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ultra-Bright-GU10-LED-COB-Spot-Down-Light-Lamp-Bulb-3W-12V-DC-AC-Warm-White/202422712625?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

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I would be very interested to actually see a 12v GU10 lamp.  It does seem to go against the basic safety function of preventing unskilled persons plugging the wrong rating item into a source of power.

You could also compare other various independent definitions of GU10 -vs - MR16  to your ebay listing.

https://www.bltdirect.com/whats-the-difference-between-a-gu10-and-mr16

https://www.thegreenage.co.uk/putting-spotlights-under-the-spotlight-gu10-versus-mr16/

I certainly would not trust that an e-bay heading specification listing to be 100% accurate, when as has been pointed out further down the same listing it describes the voltage as 110/220v ac.

With regard to your 230v / 12v  issue, remember that transforming the voltage does not reduce the power, and as Power = Volts x Current, if the Volts are going down the Current will be getting higher (and vice versa).  So 12v rated fittings will need wiring and connectors that can handle typically 19 or 20 times the current of 230v fittings for the same power.

Doc H. 

Thank you Doc. I get what you are saying and I was planning to label the bulb holders very clearly so that if I ever move on and leave the fittings for new occupants it's really obvious to people if they need to replace bulbs. I was also planning to buy spare bulbs so if I did ever move I would leave these. This is the only reason I can see not to go with the GU10 option - .i.e the danger to people who might be in the house after me.

I appreciate the warning re the current. Andy said a similar thing (but less politely). But as I said to Andy I have accounted for this. The core wires are .75mm each. With 8 bulbs of a max 3w each at 12v by my calculations that should be ample? But please do tell me if I have got this wrong. And yes I am aware that any other fittings used will need to accommodate this as well. I will also look into swapping the fittings for MR16s - at the moment that is looking tricky as I haven't been able to find any MR16 fittings that will connect to the lamp shades and the rest of the fittings.

I have an electrician coming tomorrow to quote for a different job so I will ask him to take a look at it as well.

you may have accounted for this, but no one else would expect it. this is why we have standards