2 way switching configuration HELP

Good evening All,

After perusing the forum as a visitor for a while I have now found the need to ask you ladies and gents for your help and advice.

I have a customer with 2 way switching controlling the 1st floor landing light, it consists of a 2 gang switch downstairs (hallway & landing) and 1 gang upstairs, standard.

The problem is that the downstairs switch has been removed with intent to replace it with a decorative one and I cannot work out how to wire it back up.

It is not what I know as 'standard' 2 way wiring....

Upstairs switch (untouched) has - 

(2 x neutrals in a connector block), 

3 x reds in L1, 

2 x blacks in L2,

1 x red in COM.

Downstairs switch has (all now disconnected) - 

Downstairs light (1 way) -

1 x red

1 x black

Spare (all now disconnected) -

1 x red

1 x black

He also mentioned there was a piece of red wire about 1 inch long in the switch that he dropped....would this be a bridge of some kind?

well thats going to be fun... going to have to trace out what wires go there then figure out how they should switch and where the links need to be...

probably best getting someone in who know what they are doing... sounds like aDIYer has tried and failed and now its the handymans turn, whist charging the customer for his electrical skills is asking people for advice on a forum?

I expected better to be honest.

I thought this forum was a place for the more experienced to pass on advice?

DaveChase said:

I expected better to be honest.

I thought this forum was a place for the more experienced to pass on advice?

Click to expand...

i did give you advice. exactly the same as i would do if it was my job, trace what wires go where, then figure out how they should be connected, then connect them

or did you want a 'connect blue to L1, red to L3? even though im not here and there is no standard colour code?

Perhaps Dave you could give us an introduction to who you are and what your skill set is, this would in turn help us decide the best course of advice for you. I’m sure you’ll understand,  that electricity is not something that should be played with as it is often called the no smell unseen killer and it is with this in mind that we, whilst sharing our knowledge must be sure that we are not endangering the public/other users who perhaps are not competent to interfere with all things electrical, thus a referral to a professional is the best advice.  

So a little intro of your own would help us help you correctly. 

Apologies.

I am 17th edition level 3 qualified, have a few years experience but am stumped by this particular configuration.

The light fittings in both the hallway and on the landing have only a switched live and neutral and the switches are as above.

I can get the downstairs light working perfectly (1 way) and the upstairs light controlled by the downstairs switch when wired traditionally (red/com & black/L1) but at the moment the upstairs switch does nothing.

I am used to 3 core strappers, this has done me in!

How have you got the downstairs switch connected to get the upstairs and downstairs lights to work? What’s your connections? 

I don't think anyone is trying to be unhelpful Dave, but it's not possible to deduce how it's wired from the information available. 

If it was me, I would get a piece of paper and sketch out what is there, then by testing and examination work out what the interconnections are.

Thoughts. - 1 There are other ways of two way switching than three strappers; i.e. two strappers, feed to one "c" and load to the other. 

2   You don't have enough "spare" cores, (your designation) for a two way switch downstairs.  Here is a big clue.

3  Where are the live feeds?  Is upstairs and down separate or on the same MCB?

4  Look at the cable groups into the boxes.  ie which reds and blacks are a cable,?   -might help deduce their destination.

At the end of the day get a long fly lead and do it by continuity testing to light points, and switches. Just hope there are no hidden junction boxes!

Downstairs switch is currently connected traditionally in both gangs, T&Es, red in common and black in L1.

Thanks Geoff,

1- I am aware there are, just not sure how.

2 - hence the red bridge possibly?

3 - all the lights are on one circuit.

4 - I've tried to upload a pic but not having much luck.

To be clear you have both reds together and both blacks together or a red and black separately to each switch? 

Youll need 10 posts to upload a pic. 

Live reds to each common and blacks from each L1s

Is there presently any voltage present in the upstairs switch?

There are too many connections to the upstairs switch for any conventional layout I can think of. That's not to say it's wrong in any way though.

Yes, one of the three reds is live.

I have separated the three reds - 

1 appears to be a perm live

1 seems to feed the rest of the upstairs and 1 seemingly feeds the light on the landing via the downstairs switch.

So basically that's the loop?

how Certain are you that the upstairs switch hasn’t been tampered with? 

Can never be 100% but it is the original switch and was painted on pretty well 

It's seems the live feed from the 'loop' upstairs goes to the downstairs switch and then returns via the black - into a connector to another black and back into the wall...

It could be that what I initially thought where neutrals are in fact switch lives.

Perhaps the next voltage test?

I will have a go tomorrow with trying to ID by continuity but if there are JBs hidden somewhere it will be a nightmare

Have you dropped the lights to determine what cores you have there? 

DaveChase said:

I expected better to be honest.

I thought this forum was a place for the more experienced to pass on advice?

Click to expand...

Andy's guidance was pretty much spot on from my interpretation of what you have said.  Irrespective of what you may or may not have seen in the past there are NO traditional or set ways to wire or connect any lighting arrangement. If you have arrived on site to something not working and something disconnected the only approach I know of that actually works is get appropriate test equipment, a pen some paper maybe a few connectors or wago's to temporarily strap wires together then start back at basics. Don't assume anything other than everything is wired wrong and is faulty. Only when you have proved each cable in turn can you start trying to work out how any wiring interconnections work.

First test to identity which conductor(s) are permanently live from the fuse box. mark them with some tape or sleeve.

Then identify which conductors go directly to the lamp(s), a combination of test meter and then joining one of your permanent lives with a wago can confirm you have the lamp feed.

Then identify which conductors go directly between then switches, maybe need a long lead and or some suitable buzzer to assist this bit.

Verify if any of the conductors are actually a neutral loop-in-out at switch, which is just as possible as neutral loop at light or neutral back to common J/box (Spider arrangement).

Make sure you have written down all of your findings from the above tests, then either work it out in your head, or sketch it on your paper to get it working how the customer wants it to. 

Which is a long way of saying what Andy said "well thats going to be fun... going to have to trace out what wires go there then figure out how they should switch and where the links need to be... " and is in reality quite basic stuff for anyone who is half competent, which is probably why Andy suggested getting someone who knows what they are doing?  In fact anyone who has access to suitable test meters should be able to sort this out on a single visit. A DIYer with no testers except a neon screwdriver and one of those plug-in polarity testers would struggle, So I guess Andy assumed you were a DIY question.

What test gear do you have DaveChase?   hidden j/boxes shouldn't be an issue as they will not have been touched. Unless of course it never worked and has always been wired wrong and the customer is telling you Porky-Pies, Which also happens!

Doc H.