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Ed51

Rerouting Not Rewiring Cables - Need To Be Signed Off?

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Ed51

Rerouting Not Rewiring Cables - Need To Be Signed Off?
Rather a long post and lots of photos to look at. Appreciated if people can take time to read, look and reply.
See photos here, 


http://s807.photobucket.com/user/EarthTribe13/library/Electrician Forum


Cheers.


The property was rewired by my brother in law, who has a degree in electrical engineering. Rewire was done 34 years ago the property has been lived in all this time and there  have been no problems with the wiring. The kitchen wiring above the worktop was done about 25 years ago but the extension was never fitted out or used until recently.
I'm intending to reroute some of the cabling as at present is running along side of the doors looks very unsightly I have bought some trunking to put over  repositioned cables.
I'd like to make it quite clear I'm not adding any new cabling, wiring or spurs. I'm only redirecting the cable that is already there, just repositioning it. Though I will be connecting up the cable to new plug/switch boxes. I'd like to know as I'm only redirecting the existing cable. 
Am I under a legal requirement to have what I do, inspected and signed off by a fully qualified electrician  so as to avoid any problems with my house insurance being null and void?
You can see how unsightly things are at the moment. In photo A cable at bottom of box goes under floorboard. I lifted up floor board, there is a lot of slack cable there. I drilled a hole in ceiling beneath floor board, to reroute this cable. Cable above box in photo A ran along side of door up to ceiling, see photo A2 and A3 . Have drilled a hole in ceiling so can reroute cable away from door and cover with trunking. 
The box in Photo A on the skirting I'm intending to fit a new one on the wall. I've drilled a hole through this lathe partition wall, on the other side is a small room, I've drilled another hole on that side and lifted floorboard. Intend to pass cable under floorboard, through hole I drilled in ceiling beneath it. Have the rerouted cable run along ceiling under some trunking, then up through another hole I've drilled in ceiling, cable come up under floorboard in small room, then goes through wall to be connected to the box on the other side.
As I say any help, advice much appreciated.
Thank you.

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Doc Hudson

What test certificates do you have for the previous work?  If none then I would suggest it needs a thorough and full inspection to verify that the original circuit wiring is electrically safe and compliant with all the requirements to ensure safe disconnection in the event of a fault.  Remember the prime function when doing any design/install/test or amend to any electrical circuit is NOT to get something working, it is too ensure that the supply will automatically disconnect fast enough in the event of a fault so as to not endanger people, property or livestock. This can be verified by the test results on an electrical certificate.   

 

Doc H.

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ProDave

I would add, that at 35 years old, and seeing some of your pictures, that looks a prime candidate for a rewire. Any "tidying up" you do will not bring it up to standards and at the heart is old, poorly done wiring, and probably an old type fuse box.

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Evans Electric

You'd be lucky to get someone to "sign it off"  to be honest .   Not many sparks will do that .     I notice you specified you are  altering  & tidying up   but "NOT " installing new circuits   so I presume you are by passing  the Part Pee stuff .   

 

Have you tested the install  ?   So just needs trunking  or chasing in ?     Your  Brother in Law may  have had a degree in Electrical Engineering  but he was no sparks by the look of the work.   

 

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Murdoch

At 34 years old, the installation would probably benefit from some form of Inspection (EICR) ........... and that is likely to raise a number of non compliance's with the regs and as others have suggested the fuseboard isn't likely to comply either.

 

.............. tread carefully before you do anything is my advice...  especially if you are planning on selling, letting or using as a hmo, or obviously your family ...

Edited by Murdoch

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Sidney

Are those exposed cables above the worktop live?

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Sharpend

Having had a quick look through the pics, I’d say that with the amount of work that appears to be being done in the property you’d be wise just too add a few grand and have a proper rewire done, at least that way it will be done according to standard and will definitely last another 20-30 years. 

Only my opinion.  Ultimately you have to decide and pay?! 

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binky

as you have gutted the kitchen, I would wire that as a separate cct to rest of house. Trunking looks better than a surface cable, but still looks rubbish compared to a cable fished through the wall. 

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SPECIAL LOCATION
8 hours ago, Ed51 said:

Rerouting Not Rewiring Cables - Need To Be Signed Off?
 

Am I under a legal requirement to have what I do, inspected and signed off by a fully qualified electrician  so as to avoid any problems with my house insurance being null and void?
 

 

Legally...…….  

As the wiring regulations are non-statutory there is NO Legal requirement..

 

House insurance null & void......

The only people who can answer that would be your insurance company?

 

Now lets say you did have a house fire that was confirmed to be due to an electrical fault.....

As with many insurance providers it is quite possible they could start looking for excuses to reduce pay-outs or not pay anything at all.

You will need to read your terms and conditions small print.

 

The common sense Approach:-

Lets consider  [1]  "Only Re-Routing"  -vs-  [2]  "Installing New Wiring"

 

[1]

To re- route:  you will I guess, be disconnecting joints man-handling and un fixing cables..

feeding them down a new routes,  re fixing, then re making off the joints..

older cables that have been in service will become less flexible and often harder to work or dress into terminations..

The condition of the conductors and insulation on this older cable may have some level of deterioration dependant upon its age and use over the years....

Without any formal certified test reading this cable is an unknown quantity for future reliability.

 

[2]

Installing new wiring will be using new cable which will have no deterioration due to age or use..

It will be easier to manage terminate and dress into any terminations.

It would still need testing once installed to verify the intergity of joints and to ensure no damage to conductors or insulation during installation.

 

 

The reality is that electricity can kill an adult in less than half a second 

and wiring regulations require all alteration work to be designed tested and certified by a competent person..

 

And they recommend inspection and testing after 10 years or change of occupancy...

So unless you have some previous test certificates that are less than 10 years old 

 

I would think only a fool would choose to omit proper testing...:C

 

 

The logic of your approach to my mind is like saying...

 

I am buying a second-hand car and thinking about paying the RAC or AA etc.. 

to do a general safety check on it...

 

I have seen two cars...

one is 3 years old, the other is 25 years old both have MOTs passed during the previous week..

 

Because the 25 year old one has been used for longer it must be more reliable so I won't bother getting that one formally checked by a competent vehicle technician...

 

Any wiring that has been in service for 34 years should have been re-tested at least  FOUR times so far..

At installation, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years...

+ during any alterations during this timespan...

 

Guinness

 

 

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Ed51
On 07/01/2019 at 16:38, Evans Electric said:

You'd be lucky to get someone to "sign it off"  to be honest .   Not many sparks will do that .     I notice you specified you are  altering  & tidying up   but "NOT " installing new circuits   so I presume you are by passing  the Part Pee stuff .   

 

Have you tested the install  ?   So just needs trunking  or chasing in ?     Your  Brother in Law may  have had a degree in Electrical Engineering  but he was no sparks by the look of the work.   

 

Thanks for the input. "  so I presume you are by passing  the Part Pee stuff . " What is part pee?  "Have you tested the install  ?   So just needs trunking  or chasing in ? " No not tested, yes rerouting and covering with trunking is what I want to do. "    Your  Brother in Law may  have had a degree in Electrical Engineering  but he was no sparks by the look of the work. " He recently rewired his daughters house and had an electrician test and sign it off.   

 

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Ed51
On 07/01/2019 at 19:36, binky said:

as you have gutted the kitchen, I would wire that as a separate cct to rest of house. Trunking looks better than a surface cable, but still looks rubbish compared to a cable fished through the wall. 

An electrician actually did the kitchen not my brother in law.

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Ed51
On 07/01/2019 at 15:23, Doc Hudson said:

" What test certificates do you have for the previous work?" I don't have any, so long ago now." That said a new meter was installed on the old consumer board a couple of years ago. "If none then I would suggest it needs a thorough and full inspection to verify that the original circuit wiring is electrically safe and compliant with all the requirements to ensure safe disconnection in the event of a fault."OK so I do that, and the original circuit wiring is OK, can the electrician then reroute some cables so I can cover with trunking?

 

"Remember the prime function when doing any design/install/test or amend to any electrical circuit is NOT to get something working, it is too ensure that the supply will automatically disconnect fast enough in the event of a fault so as to not endanger people, property or livestock.

 

........This can be verified by the test results on an electrical certificate".......

 

Am uploading a photo of new meter on board next to old stuff.   

 

Doc H.

 

A.JPG

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Sharpend

Sorry but what is the context of your comment re the new meter in relation to whether the installation is safe and compliant? 

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Ed51
1 minute ago, Sharpend said:

Sorry but what is the context of your comment re the new meter in relation to whether the installation is safe and compliant? 

I was thinking the guy who installed, connected up the new meter and main cut off switches, might have run a test on the wiring at the same time.

On 07/01/2019 at 17:56, Sidney said:

Are those exposed cables above the worktop live?

Yes.

On 07/01/2019 at 18:12, Sharpend said:

Having had a quick look through the pics, I’d say that with the amount of work that appears to be being done in the property you’d be wise just too add a few grand and have a proper rewire done, at least that way it will be done according to standard and will definitely last another 20-30 years. 

Only my opinion.  Ultimately you have to decide and pay?! 

OK thanks.

If it comes down to a full rewire, what kind of prices would we be talking about, top end, bottom end of scale? 

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SPECIAL LOCATION
1 minute ago, Ed51 said:

I was thinking the guy who installed, connected up the new meter and main cut off switches, might have run a test on the wiring at the same time.

 

They are NOT responsible for the bit after the meter, that is your responsibility...

 

So other than the incoming polarity very unlikely to have tested anything!

 

Guinness 

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binky

I would still separate kitchen - did said electrican give you any test certs for the kitchen work? I'm guessing not!  My reasoning for this is that most of the electrical load in a house is in the kitchen / utility area if you have one of those. Tumble driers and washing machines being the prime culprits. Cabling ages faster with loading, so you have cable that is roughly 30 years old, it is probably good for another 20 odd years - needs testing to make a decision on that. It looks like you only have 2 ccts, lights and sockets. Take the load of the sockets for the rest of the house, and the cable should last a lot longer.  Plus more circuit separation gives a more reliable system. 

 

You would definetly benefit from a board upgrade, and judging by your board, you have a small 2 up 2 down house. BIt hard to price a re-wire over the internet, but I would say £2-3k 

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Ed51
10 hours ago, SPECIAL LOCATION said:

 

They are NOT responsible for the bit after the meter, that is your responsibility...

 

So other than the incoming polarity very unlikely to have tested anything!

 

Guinness 

OK thanks.

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Ed51
9 hours ago, binky said:

I would still separate kitchen - did said electrican give you any test certs for the kitchen work? I'm guessing not!  My reasoning for this is that most of the electrical load in a house is in the kitchen / utility area if you have one of those. Tumble driers and washing machines being the prime culprits. Cabling ages faster with loading, so you have cable that is roughly 30 years old, it is probably good for another 20 odd years - needs testing to make a decision on that. It looks like you only have 2 ccts, lights and sockets. Take the load of the sockets for the rest of the house, and the cable should last a lot longer.  Plus more circuit separation gives a more reliable system. 

 

You would definetly benefit from a board upgrade, and judging by your board, you have a small 2 up 2 down house. BIt hard to price a re-wire over the internet, but I would say £2-3k 

OK thanks for a bit more helpful info :) I should imagine the electrician did issue test certificates but so long ago, would have been lost. " small 2 up 2 down house. " Yes.

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Ed51

The old boiler that was installed in the house in 1985. This was removed about 4 years ago and replaced with a brand new £1000 boiler, all electrically wired in, installed and tested, signed off. The intention is to tidy the house up and sell it.

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binky

in that case a basic re-wire is a good selling point ie install pendants rather than downlighters, a few sockets in every room. Cooker feed (even if you have gas) and a separate boiler feed. If the property is empty, then cost will be less as it's a lot easier.

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Sharpend

As Binky says either a basic spec rewire or a deduction on the price. A new buyer is unlikely to be that impressed with trunking everywhere when they could get a house up the road that has properly hidden cabling for more or less the same price :C 

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Sidney

As those cables in the kitchen are live I would get them sorted immediately, either by fixing accessories to them or at least terminating into something such as Wago connectors in a box to keep them out of harms way.

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Ed51
8 hours ago, Sharpend said:

As Binky says either a basic spec rewire or a deduction on the price. A new buyer is unlikely to be that impressed with trunking everywhere when they could get a house up the road that has properly hidden cabling for more or less the same price :C 

OK looks like I will bite the bullet and go for a basic rewire. I'm not well enough to be able to work and am on benefit. The house is in a bit of a state with stuff everywhere I can hardly move around, not a hoarder, just stuff one accumulates over the years. I'd feel a bit ashamed, self conscious, uncomfortable about someone coming in. I'm able to  move stuff around from room to room, would an electrician be able to do it a bit at a time, so I can get stuff out of the way? Also selecting an electrician who is a  properly accredited qualified? Like  The Gas Safe register type of thing.

So for a basic rewire, high end low end price in Swindon area Wiltshire.

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Risteard
20 hours ago, binky said:

you have cable that is roughly 30 years old, it is probably good for another 20 odd years

 

I can assure you that any cable manufacturer will tell you that the typical service life of a cable is not taken to be anything like 50 years. More like 25 years. This is likely a life-expired installation.

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Evans Electric

look online for Registered Competent Persons Electrical .

Then look on there for someone near you and get some quotes . 

 

If your place is cluttered  they will almost certainly allow for that in their quotes ...I do . 

Edited by Evans Electric

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Risteard
2 hours ago, Evans Electric said:

look online for Registered Competent Persons Electrical .

 

Only relevant to England & Wales. The Electrical Safety Register should be used elsewhere.

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