Need a CO2 alarm for a pub cellar

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ProDave

ProDave

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I have been asked to fit a CO2 alarm in a pub cellar following a recommendation from a fire audit.

I am seeking further clarification of what exactly has been called for. But wondered if anyone has fitted one.

A quick search has found a few things claiming to be a CO2 alarm but when you look, it is an erroneously described CO alarm.

I don't need a CO alarm, there are no combustion appliances anywhere near the cellar. I assume it really is a CO2 alarm requested due to the use of CO2 cylinders in the cellar.

Any advice please?

 
That highlights the need for clarification of what has been asked for.

That is a CO2 METER not an ALARM  I don't think it has an alarm function.  That may be what is needed, but the request came to me as a "CO2 alarm" which to me is something that makes a noise if a safe level is exceeded.

And I suspect they won't like the price tag.

 
Just price it up Dave ,  if they don't like the cost it,s their problem .   Theres a couple  showing up  on Google.

Where would  Carbon Dioxide  be leaking from then  .   Something to do with the gas cylinders pressurising the pumps .?   

 
Yes I assume it is the CO2 cylinders and the risk of a leak they have been told to protect from.  If this is a general requirement now you would think CO2 monitors / alarms would become as common as CO alarms and the prices would drop?

 
Have you tried contacting any breweries to ask if they are standard fit? I suspect that a monitor is fitted in cellar with an alarm indicator in bar area otherwise how would they know?

 
Evans Electric said:
Just price it up Dave ,  if they don't like the cost it,s their problem .   Theres a couple  showing up  on Google.

Where would  Carbon Dioxide  be leaking from then  .   Something to do with the gas cylinders pressurising the pumps .?   
Click to expand...


pub cellars have CO2 bottles

theres usually a sensor inside and a warning light / sounder at the door to state if its safe or not to enter

 
I used to do work for the brewery some years ago, a lot of them did actually fit them in the cellars, Coca Cola used to make us fit them if we installed their equipment, however it's worth noting that they are only needed in a traditional cellar, i.e underground, this is due to the carbon dioxide being heavier than air. However a lot of modern pubs have the 'cellar' on ground level, so in reality it's not as important to fit the alarm.

The ones we fitted had 2 parts, the sensor and an alarm in the cellar and a repeater panel, usually behind the bar, these worked on a traffic light system, a constant green light meant the system was operating and gas levels were normal, an orange light meant an increase in CO2 but not at harmful levels, finally a red light and a buzzer sounding meant you called us out. Most leaks were caused by staff not checking the sealing washer is still on the gas regulator when they change the bottle.

 
I used to work with CO2 - cooling for environmental test chambers. The test area had CO2 monitors with an alarm built in to warn if we had a major leak. It would have been hard to miss a leak as the CO2 was at -1700C - you tend to get a fog and icicles forming, but it would be easy to forget the O2 levels were low under such circumstances. NB CO2 is heavier than air so sinks to floor level - mount detector low down.

 
So I asked the landlord (actually the barmaid I think) for clarification.

This request has come from the local branch of Trumpton following an inspection.

This is the exact reply that was forwarded to me:

Hi Dave,
 

The fire brigade have said this:

 

You should be able to pick up a C02 alarm in somewhere like B & Q which is battery operated. The C02 meter would only suffice if there was an alarm attached which gave warning when levels were excessive.
 

Hope this helps
Click to expand...


There you have it. Cheap CO2 alarms from B&Q.

The ONLY thing I glean from that is they want an alarm, as in something that makes a noise.  But a cheap battery powered one from B&Q?  surely Trumpton are not confused between CO2 and CO alarms are they?  Are they?

P.S just searched DIY.COM for CO2 alarm, and it listed 6 CO alarms.

Perhaps I just need one of those, and a sharpie?

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I am about to hit the "send" button on this email.  What do you think?

That reply from the Fire Brigade has just confused me even more.


 


Can you forward this to them for further clarification.


 


CO2 is the gas used in the cellar so I thought they might genuinely be asking for a CO2 alarm.  CO2 is not a poisonous gas as such but it will kill you by asphyxiation by displacing oxygen and reducing the oxygen level too low. Particularly so as CO2 is heavier than air so will not readily escape from the cellar.


 


However CO2 alarms are not common, and are expensive, probably due to the chemistry of the sensor required.  In order to fit a CO2 alarm I must first find one and would need guidance on a BS standard number that it should comply with and at what CO2 concentration the alarm should sound.


 


CO on the other hand is a gas produced by combustion and is toxic.  CO alarms are available very cheap because the sensor technology is cheap and they are made in volume.  But there are no combustion appliances in your cellar and not even a flue pipe passing through the cellar so a CO alarm would serve no purpose.


 


I am disturbed by the suggestion that I can simply buy a cheap battery powered CO2 alarm from B&Q.  This is not the case.  A search of DIY.COM (B&Q's website) for "CO2 alarm" lists the 6 CO alarms they sell, but no CO2 alarms.


 


I therefore need more clarification of exactly what the requirements are.
Click to expand...
 
Great email Dave, send it. 

Good point Geoff. Keep it so they can understand it as it seems they don’t know the differences probably don’t know the different spellings either. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Go for it, it's surprising how many people think they are being clever referring to gases by symbols rather than name, when in reality they haven't got a clue. Recently I attended an Aico seminar(very good btw) however I had to endure about 5 hours of some wanna be smart arse in the group who kept referring to a carbon monoxide alarm as a CO2 alarm. It was lucky for him that I didn't have access to the venue cellar, otherwise I may have been tempted to insert a bottle of CO2 into his rectal cavity. Sadly the emergency services are not immune to this phenomenon, I had a friend who was told by the fire officer that it was fine to install interlinked domestic smoke alarms in a large commercial premises, the regs said it wasn't.

The ones we fitted in the pub cellars were the ones that Andy posted a link to, generally you don't need the lcd display, just the 'traffic light' version with, as he pointed out, the repeater panel in the bar area.

 

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