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Click4

Self Certification Schemes

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Click4

Following on from another post I made.

 

just wondering if these are sufficient to get enrolled on a self certification scheme to sign off electrical rewires in domestic premises?

 

 

City & Guilds 4141-02 Principles of Electro Technology

Multiple Choice Exam

City & Guilds 4141-01 - Electrical Installation Work within a Domestic Dwelling

1 Practical Assessment

City & Guilds 2393 – Part P Building Regulations

1 Multiple Choice open book online exam (Usually in week 2)

City & Guilds 2382-18 18th Edition Wiring Regulations

1 Multiple Choice open book online exam

City & Guilds 2392-10 – Inspection & Testing Course

1 Practical Assessment

1 Multiple Choice Exam

City & guilds 2377 22 & 32 PAT Testing Course

2 Online Exams

NICEIC / ELECSA Online Knowledge Assessment

1 Online Multiple Choice Exam (Taken after course completion)

 

thanks

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binky

I would think that is plenty! 

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Click4

Thanks,

 

just asking because as per another reply I did,

 

i have multiple properties which need rewiring that was left behind by a family member passing away, well 2, my dad and uncle who both passed away within 9 months of each other.

 

i tried enquiring with building control to sign off, one didn’t even want to give me a price, then when I took price off their website and quoted back at them they acknowledged it but said I would need to pay an electrician on top of that for the inspection and testing. Other building control didn’t have a price listed but said they would have to contract an electrician and let me know price. Although they was willing to accept my testing if I had relevant qualification which would presumably mean a lower charge.

 

and I’m struggling to find an electrician. Who can do it because NICEIC and Elecsa don’t permit 3rd party signing off.

 

so when I did some estimates, on amount of properties, if I estimate £800 each to get signed off, possibly more, based on building control of one charging £420 plus electrician charge on top for inspection And testing .

 

it worked out as much as taking that training course.

 

i know I would still have to sign up to a scheme, and buy a test meter and take out insurance I assume to get on a scheme.

 

but the meter was going to buy anyway so I could test as I went along, so just scheme membership and insurance.

 

Just seemed if that above course was suitable as I’m only doing domestic work I may as well get qualified, sign up to a scheme and sign off my own work, can also use the rewires for practical assessment also means I can if I wanted to open up avenues work wise in the future.

 

was just concerned if that met it or not as I don’t know what the requirements are, just going by it saying on the training companies website.

 

thanks

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SPECIAL LOCATION
1 hour ago, Click4 said:

Following on from another post I made.

 

just wondering if these are sufficient to get enrolled on a self certification scheme to sign off electrical rewires in domestic premises?

 

 

City & Guilds 4141-02 Principles of Electro Technology

Multiple Choice Exam

City & Guilds 4141-01 - Electrical Installation Work within a Domestic Dwelling

1 Practical Assessment

City & Guilds 2393 – Part P Building Regulations

1 Multiple Choice open book online exam (Usually in week 2)

City & Guilds 2382-18 18th Edition Wiring Regulations

1 Multiple Choice open book online exam

City & Guilds 2392-10 – Inspection & Testing Course

1 Practical Assessment

1 Multiple Choice Exam

City & guilds 2377 22 & 32 PAT Testing Course

2 Online Exams

NICEIC / ELECSA Online Knowledge Assessment

1 Online Multiple Choice Exam (Taken after course completion)

 

thanks

 

 

The PAT testing is of no use whatsoever... :shakehead

But as for requirements for membership best place to check is the scheme providers websites...

 

http://www.niceic.com/contractor/essentials/assessment/niceic-and-assessment/what-qualifications-does-the-qualified-supervi-(1)

 

https://www.napit.org.uk/schemes/competent-person-scheme.aspx

 

https://www.stroma.com/certification/membership-application

 

etc..   

decide who you want to join and ask them what requirements they want?

 

Guinness

Edited by SPECIAL LOCATION

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Click4

Thanks, will have another read of them links.

 

I did take a look but not familiar with what the qualifications are, NICEIC say level 3 qualification but don’t know if any of those meet level 3.

 

but will try and make further enquires, seems better to pay out the money, and end up with a qualification at the end of it rather than paying the money to building control and end up with nothing at the end of it, even if I don’t end up using it often at least I still have the option to.

 

with the pats, it’s part of the course.

 

they do a cheaper course with,

 

City & Guilds 4141-01 - Electrical Installation Work within a Domestic Dwelling

1 Practical Assessment

City & Guilds 2393 – Part P Building Regulations

1 Multiple Choice open book online exam (Usually in week 2)

City & Guilds 2382-18 – 18th Edition Wiring Regulations

1 Multiple Choice open book online exam

City & Guilds 2392-10 – Inspection & Testing Course

1 Practical Assessment

1 Multiple Choice Exam

OKA Assessment

1 Online Multiple Choice Exam (Taken after course completion)

 

but it didn’t know if that met the requirements for self certification scheme.

Edited by Click4

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Andy™

only thing you need to be competent in is paying their fee

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SPECIAL LOCATION
1 minute ago, Andy™ said:

only thing you need to be competent in is paying their fee

 

 

It was harder in our day.....

 

We used to have to write a Cheque!!!

 

Today its just a Card number or a Direct Debit!!!!

 

:slap:pmsl1::D

Guinness

 

:coat

 

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Click4

Lol I’m not a scheme member,  clearly but agree it’s a gravy train to make money.

 

as I said rather emotively in another post, the way it is, it’s ring fenced.

 

part p allows 3rd party signing off.

 

and you are either inside the circle paying your subscription and able to sign off work... or you are on the outside where it’s made very difficult / next to impossible.

 

like I enquired with one building control, they had a price listed on their website, but I tried to confirm asking for price... they replied saying I needed to get somebody with NICEIC / Elecsa to do the work.

 

then I quoted that their website showed a price, of £420.00

 

then they acknowledged it, and said that it didn’t include cost of an electrician to inspect and test it... so that would be more money, and on top of that they wanted detailed technical information, like circuit lengths, wiring diagrams, calculations etc making somebody on the outside jump through hoops.

 

im not somebody interested in doing a DIY bodge job which doesnt meet regs, I’m genuinely trying to do it properly but they make it next to impossible.

 

then they wonder why people do the work without notification in a dangerous state because those like me who try and want it inspected for safety can’t get it done easily so it ends up feeling like what’s the point, who’s going to notice and doing it illegally... until something goes wrong or you go to sell your house and need the paperwork.

 

so I tried looking for an electrician willing to do it, but then Elecsa and NICEIC don’t allow their members to sign off 3rd part, looked at nappit, they allow it but say their members have to pay £50+vat so unlikely many will have paid for it... leaving stroma which from my perspective is one of the lesser known ones certainly that I’ve heard of and as such more difficult to find a member willing to do it.

 

and when I started adding up the costs of getting things signed off via building control I realised it was going to cost almost as much as the cost of training up and getting the qualification... ok I can’t do commercial as it’s only domestic but not aiming to do any commercial anyway.

 

but Only thing I can see as an outside is that building control can’t be bothered because it’s work for them... so they do their best to make it difficult and discourage, and the scheme providers deliberately maintain the fence so they remain the exclusive means of certifying work and thus maintaining their gravy train.

 

im not sure though it does much for increasing standards of safety though and stamping out dangerous installations because if somebody can’t afford an electrician, and there are many who can’t afford to pay people...they will always seek to do it themselves if they “think” they are able to even if they don’t know entirely how to do it properly because to them it’s a fact of necessity... right or wrong morally speaking.

 

part P was supposed to stamp out diyers and cowboys, but we all know and have seen them still exist in both camps.

 

same as gas safe and the boilers, people still illegally fit them regardless. What goes on in somebody’s own home nobody can police unless it came to light and if somebody gets a handyman to do something or a builder... many are ignorant as to whether they are supposed to be or if it’s done properly, but people like me who desire deeply to do it properly simply can’t easily and if I’m honest if it wasn’t for rental or sale of the properties and my own property... if I couldn’t get it done legally I may probably just carry on. So doesn’t prevent anything and suspect many electricians never noticed much of an increase in work after Part P was introduced... but could be wrong as I’m not one.

 

so not really much of a case for blocking 3rd party sign offs as NICEIC has done other than the liability aspect but that can be fixed with legislation changes so the electrician testing and inspecting isn’t liable same as an mot inspector isn’t liable as it’s tested as presented at that moment in time. Nobody is likely loosing work, if anything would probably get more work.

 

but to do so would be opening up the ring fence and less people would become registered as they could just do the work and get another fellow electrician to sign it off. So their memberships could drop.  

Edited by Click4

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SPECIAL LOCATION
1 hour ago, Click4 said:

 

and you are either inside the circle paying your subscription and able to sign off work... or you are on the outside where it’s made very difficult / next to impossible.

 

like I enquired with one building control, they had a price listed on their website, but I tried to confirm asking for price... they replied saying I needed to get somebody with NICEIC / Elecsa to do the work.

then I quoted that their website showed a price, of £420.00

 

then they acknowledged it, and said that it didn’t include cost of an electrician to inspect and test it... so that would be more money, and on top of that they wanted detailed technical information, like circuit lengths, wiring diagrams, calculations etc making somebody on the outside jump through hoops.

 

im not somebody interested in doing a DIY bodge job which doesnt meet regs, I’m genuinely trying to do it properly but they make it next to impossible.

then they wonder why people do the work without notification in a dangerous state because those like me who try and want it inspected for safety can’t get it done easily 

 

Erm...

don't think you are quite correct with some of your suggested methods there....

 

e.g. A DIYer can build and do the electrics for any home building project..

But if they want the council to organise signing it off,  Just as with building a physical room..

They will need to see the proposed plans and drawings FIRST before you start the work..

 

Part P defines three methods of signing off notiyable work..

 

Registered scheme member sorts it all out.

Non scheme member but qualified electrician issues certs to the council who finalise the Part P compliance aspect

or DIY does the work but gets LABC to test and certify it all.. 

 

The three possible procedures are laid out in approved document P (around pages 9 & 10)

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/441872/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013.pdf

 

BUT for a DIYer to do the work and get the LABC to sign it all off you should notify them FIRST BEFORE you start the work...

They will then discuss with the DIY bod if they consider the design acceptable and what and when tests and inspections are needed....

 

DIY electrical work is not illegal in England...  But Part P is...

and for that if you follow the guidance of Approved Doc P there is no one who can refuse..

BUT.. if you get the work done without establishing who's signing it all off before you start, then you are leaving the lid well and truly off the can of worms...

 

Personally I would be reluctant to sign off anyone else's work that I have not been involved in at design & installation etc..

As I am just leaving myself open to a bucket load of legal liabilities if something goes pear shaped.

 

Guinness

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Click4

I maybe wrong lol so not going to say I’m correct.

 

But you are correct it should be possible to notify via building control.

 

but my experience of trying last week even just in an enquiry fashion was that,

 

first they didnt acknowledge they even had a price for electrical work signing off, just told me I need to get an Elecsa or NICEIC electrician to do the work.

 

then I quoted back at them the price listed on their website, and only then they acknowledged it... and then told me that despite it being £420 the cost of them finding an electrician to inspect and test it would be extra, but couldn’t give me a price.

 

but initially they wouldn’t even acknowledge they could do it, didn’t seem interested whatsoever and wanted to discourage me from doing it via them.

 

and most electricians won’t do it for reasons you won’t, because of liability...that and NICEIC and Elecsa don’t permit it which is understandable because as you said it opens up a whole host of liability issues if somebody has hidden a dodgy bit of electrics somewhere out of sight or messed with it after being signed off etc

 

so if an electrician won’t do it for understandable reasons, which you have mentioned, and building control won’t even acknowledge they have a price, then when they do show a complete disinterest for doing it and attach a price so high to discourage people from going via them... or if somebody doesn’t know how to do the wiring diagrams and work out circuit lengths etc it doesn’t leave them much choice, if they can afford to do so, get an electrician.

 

but if they are adamant enough that they have a disregard for the regs and inspection and testing and don’t have the money they will just carry on as normal which is what many diyers have, not all as I don’t have a disregard and am trying to find a way to do it legally and properly.

 

I don’t want to do that, so now I’m looking seriously into getting qualified even just for domestic work so I can sign off my own work.

 

no point paying the amount council want because over several properties it’s practically same price as the training course lol and at least I can take something away at the end.

 

but I do feel they would be better legislating so that Electrician’s are somewhat immune from the liability involved signing off 3rd party work... and then scheme providers opening up the ring fence to signing off 3rd party work as it would probably bring in a few jobs whereby people like me want to do it properly and above board with certificates. Whereas otherwise they would of just done it anyway regardless.

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SPECIAL LOCATION

If you have actually worked in the real world and seen some of the nightmare DIY botch ups that are out there....

you may have a better understanding of some of the reluctance for anyone not directly employed to undertake the work to accept liability for someone else's design or lack of it...

 

There is NO SUCH THING as a typical bog standard domestic electrical installation...

 

So when you contacted the council did you present then with your circuit design proposals so they had some meat on the bones to evaluate??

 

If not...  its no different to an architect ringing the council to say I want to build a kitchen and bedroom + garage on a property how much will it cost to get it all signed off??

they will be asking for drawings plans etc.. detailing the whole design...  

 

Bottom line.. Its all down to what we used to call "technical Tick (or Tag)" at my old place of work before going self employed..

 

i.e..  If you have any significant doubts about any aspect of a particular installation..

make sure you are not that last one to touch it..   Or have you name on the paper work..

 

Unless you are 100% confident it cannot re-surface to bite you on the rear end!!!!!!!!

 

Time and time again we see this waffle and moaning about a relatively low cost for proper electrical work..

Yet homeowners will pay thousands for the Kitchen or bathroom they have purchased from B&Q or Wickes or Magnet  etc..

and for the fitters to come and install the bit

  

Most building inspectors get to know the builders they can trust and those who try to cut every corner possible...

And those who have proved themselves typically have to jump though less hoops than the dodgy crew..

( My wife's cousin is a builder who confirms this especially if he is working out of area under a different building control dept! )..

 

And I doubt the electrical aspect is treated nay differently...

i.e. if you are a proven quantity you will be jumping through less hoops and notifying jobs will be easier..

 

Where as if you are a new-kid-on-the-block..

Then you will have to jump through every possible hoop available!!!!!!!!!

 

:popcorn

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Murdoch

My scheme, Stroma allows 3rd party sign off ..... but this isn’t Part P ..... it’s just the test of another’s work 

 

I never do it ...

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