Jump to content
ElectricSpecs

Your thoughts on EICR

Recommended Posts

ElectricSpecs

EICR has just been carried out for a rental property which i own -I'm keen to understand if the work is really required or if it's upsell?

Price of quote for remdial work is higher than previously intimated and with lower spec parts which concerns me.

 

It's been failed based on several points. I'm a layman when it comes to electrical works but I note from my own research that plastic fuseboard guideline is a C3 not a C2 though it seems to have been bundled into the latter here.

 

 

Several items listed on the report- all as C2 s:

 

1
DB : 4.3 Condition of enclosure(s) in terms of IP rating etc (416.2) - Top of the DB/CU has an unused opening exceeding IP4X with no access to live
parts (416.2.2) Side, bottom or front of the DB/CU has an unused opening exceeding IP2X (416.2.1) Clip in blanking plate fitted to DB/CU (complying
with BS EN 60/61439-3) is not secured with sufficient stability and durability, and is an IP rating issue (416.2.3;134.1.1;113.1;522)
2
DB : 4.4 Condition of enclosure(s) in terms of fire rating etc (421.1.201; 526.5) - CU in a domestic household premises is not metal or installed in a
non-combustible cabinet, showing no signs of thermal damage, located in the sole means of escape for a dwelling area (421.1.201) The DB/CU has
excessive hole in the rear of the enclosure fixed to flammable surface and has no signs of thermal damage (527.1.1)
3
DB : 4.14 Compatibility of protective devices, bases and other components; correct type and rating (No signs of unacceptable thermal damage, arcing
or overheating) (411.3.2; 411.4; 411.5; 411.6; section 432.433) - RCCB has not been selected appropriately for diversity, taking account of possible
circuit loadings, and is not equal to or greater than its main supply current rating – signs of overheating and thermal damage (522;536.4.202)
4
DB : 4.18 RCD(s) provided for fault protection - includes RCBOs (411.4.204; 411.5.2; 531.2) - Selectivity not achieved with series-connected RCD –
Safety concerns present (531.3.2;536.4.1.4)
5
DB : 5.17.4 Adequately connected at point of entry to enclosure (glands, bushes etc.) (522.8.5) - Un-bushed cable entry (stranded cables) –
mechanical strain/damage (522.8.1/5)

 

 

Also agreed limitations stated as

"No floor wall or ceiling spaces visibly inspected. Heating supply not live tested."

 

 

I'd like to know:

1. would you fail the EICR based on above?

2. What remedial action would you advise eg replace fuseboard/ block holes/openings with suitable plugs/ install into non combustable cabinet.? My priority is to keep costs low while meeting the standard for rental properties.

3. Should i be concerned about the agreed limitations? I understand the heating supply has been dead tested but not live tested as it's a economy 7 storage heater so no power during the day when the test was conducted.

 

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sharpend

How old is this property? 

When was last EICR carried out? 
do you have an old report? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Murdoch

1. Tricky to comment without seeing it

 

2. C3 or no comment

 

3. C3 or no comment if I understand the comment correctly

 

4. Not sure I understand the comment

 

5. A picture would be handy

 

 

This is the best document to read:

 

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/2149/bpg4-1.pdf

 

You need 10 posts on here to upload photo's 

 

Hope this helps

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ElectricSpecs

Thanks for the replies.

 

The property was built in 1968.

I don't know if there has previously been and EICR but in any case I dont have the report, only owned the property a few years.

 

thanks for the link - I see that the report observations aren't exactly meeting this requirement:

Quote

Each observation should be written in a clear, accurate and concise manner that is likely to be understood by the person ordering the work. Technical terms should be avoided or explained unless it is known that the recipient is an electrical engineer or electrician, for example.

 

I notice this point under C2s

Quote

Electrical equipment having an inadequate
degree of ingress protection (IP rating) for
the external influences likely to occur in the
location, if this results in potential danger

 

This corresponds to one of the observations though i'm not sure what the external inflences would be. The CU is in a hallway cupboard so unlikely to be showered in water/sand etc.

 

Quote

Consumer unit without a lockable lid, a blank
not suitably secured or durable with possible
access to live parts.

THis also corresponds. Though I would have thought this could be remedied without replacing the whole CU.

 

 

THis is in the PDF as a C3:

Quote

• Presence of a consumer unit or similar
switchgear made from combustible material
(e.g. plastic) that is not inside a non-
combustible enclosure and which is:
- Located under wooden staircase, or
- within a sole route of escape from the premises
(Note: If unsatisfactory connections are found
during inspection, this would warrant a code C2
classification to be recorded)

 

 

I'll see if i can upload a picture somewhere and post a link though it only shows the overall unit - it isn't a close up.

 

 

There defininelty seems to be some rounding up going on - any suggestions on best way to proceed, I've already had a conversation with the electrician trying to tease out whether all of these factors are really C2s/Fail and whether replacing the whole CU which is what he says is needed is truly required?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sharpend

Was there any issues anywhere else in the property on the report? 
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ElectricSpecs

no, Ive been told it's a matter of replacing the CU to get a pass. Of course while this may sound somewhat trivial its about the most expensive single component conceivable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Murdoch
Just now, ElectricSpecs said:

no, Ive been told it's a matter of replacing the CU to get a pass. Of course while this may sound somewhat trivial its about the most expensive single component conceivable.

 

An investment for the safety of your tenants and future selling price

 

I would recommend you get competitive quotes to replace the fuseboard - where in the UK are you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sharpend

This is where I can’t help but think that some are over cooking the plastic CU business. A house that was built on 1968 that may have been updated at some point and too have no other C3’s never mind C2’s I find rather suspicious, maybe it’s just me. :C  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Murdoch
5 minutes ago, Sharpend said:

This is where I can’t help but think that some are over cooking the plastic CU business. A house that was built on 1968 that may have been updated at some point and too have no other C3’s never mind C2’s I find rather suspicious, maybe it’s just me. :C  

 

 

Lack of RCD protection for cables in walls is a C3 IMHO .............. 

 

Wonder how much the EICR cost?

how big the property is?

how many circuits?

and how long the person was on site?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Murdoch
18 hours ago, ElectricSpecs said:

Price of quote for remedial work is higher than previously intimated and with lower spec parts which concerns me.

 

 

Just noticed this - what makes you think you would be getting lower spec parts?

 

How much have you been quoted for a change of fuseboard?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
binky

excessive size holes in DBs - silicone sealant, end of! 😀

 

Clip in blank ont securely fastened???  it either clips in or doesn't. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ElectricSpecs

investment maybe though i doubt it adds much if anything to the selling price.

 

Its a 1 bed flat not a house and the EICR cost £140, CU quoted at £660 inc vat. Thats on the south coast. Don't know how long on site as I wasnt present. Think from looking at the report it has 7 circuits.

 

Reason I say lower spec is because electrician originally (prior to the EICR) said he fits RCBO and additional surge protection but when quizzed said that this price was for cheaper alternative (think called rccd) and without surge protection.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sharpend

Whilst the EICR cost is reasonable I think they are over pricing the CU change. Did they provide any test results from this EICR- just wondering if they may flag up any potential issues to resolve prior to CU change but at 7 circuits in a 1 bed flat it’s be hard pushed to see anything obvious. 
sorry to say but I would suggest a second opinion. Do you not live local to the property? Perhaps ask a neighbour or two if they can recommend a good local spark. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ElectricSpecs

Yes i shopped around for the EICR cost but the whole situation where the gov has forced this on the rented sector esp during the midst of covid and without seemingly doing anything to make the whole test and industry thing a lot less ambigous/subjective is a nightmare tbh.

 

Problem is that the sparky has both commercial reasons and risk/responsibilities reasons to bump up  the spec/price and only their integrity (if they have any) prevents this. Since it's highy technical and subjective and the testers word seems to be final (unless you get another test but then that's more outlay and you may have the same thing happen). This is just shooting fish in a barrel for an electricians who want to generate a bit of work,

 

I'm not local so difficuly to know trusted local trades.

Presumably I'd need to get someone else to redo the EICR and then have them find it ok or get them to change the CU? If they change the CU does that give me a pass or do i need to get another ECIR done?

 

I got a report. I dont get the impression that the installation actually failed any of the actual tests and was failed based on the observations per my original post.

Edited by ElectricSpecs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sharpend

I’m not going to get into politics but this has come about again by the minority not acknowledging their duty of care to their tenants, sadly All become effected, however it is only the first one that should be painful as after that each and every landlord should have a paper trail and past reports to refer too. 
 

now your options are: 

1) accept the quote you have and pay accordingly. 
2) have a second report done at a cost and/or the remedial’s if required

 

as there are good and bad in landlords this is also the case in electricians and the remainder of life, personally on principle I wouldn’t pay £660 for a CU change on a 1 bed flat. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Murdoch

A SPD is not essential .......

 

they have only made it into the regs to help justify the latest update to BS 7671

Edited by Murdoch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Murdoch
55 minutes ago, ElectricSpecs said:

investment maybe though i doubt it adds much if anything to the selling price


 

hum, rather short sighted imho. 
 

Decent Cu fitted, tested and part p certificate should be around £500 and bear in mind most SE sparks aren’t VAT reg either

Edited by Murdoch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ElectricSpecs

Yes completely agree re good and bad electricians and landlords and sadly the majority suffer due to the minority.

I'm not trying to shirk responsibilities but am trying to ensure I don't get upsold with unecessary improvements.

FWIW i don't even have an RCD in my home so I'm not sure why such rigourous standards have been mandated for rented when owner occupiers are allowed to do as they please. (other of course than the gov hates landlords)

 

Anyway if i get a second EICR done would this be completely from fresh or would the electrician review the previous one and amend as they saw fit?

 

If i just proceed to ask another electrician to carry out a new CU fit do i then need to get another whole EICR performed to pass it or is the pass implicit from the prior report and the paperwork for the remidial work?

 

@Murdoch when you say decent CU do you mean a RCBO? Good point re VAT.

Edited by ElectricSpecs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SPECIAL LOCATION

Property built in 1968......   2020 - 1968 = 52years...

with NO previous records of any testing or electrical certificates or documentation at all...???

 

For more years than I can remember BS7671 (wiring regulations) have recommended that Domestic Dwellings be inspected & tested every 10 years or change of occupancy.

And rented properties every 5 years or change or occupancy..

 

But this has only been guidance for good practice and not legally enforceable...  so some dubious Landlords have ignored it!! 

Despite independent sites such as "The Electrical Safety Council" now called "Electrical Safety First" also recommending it for years...

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/guidance/advice-for-you/landlords/

 

Unfortunately some Landlords have ignored the industry standard guidance regarding how to ensure their properties are electrically safe for their tenants..

and NEVER bothered to get any electrical inspections done at all...   

Just as many homeowners have never bothered to check if their own home is electrically safe and/or compliant with current regs..   

{Bit like shooting fish in a barrel for Landlords to sponge off tenants without taking due diligence of their electrical installation....}

 

RCD's have been required for outdoor equipment for over 20years..

RCD's have been required for Bathroom circuits, Buried cables and all sockets, for over 10 years..

And RCD's required for lighting circuits since 2019....

 

It is only now that legally enforceable inspections have become a requirement..

That some Landlords have bothered to ask for professional advice... 

(Just as some homeowners are happy with DIY lash-ups with no testing or verifications for safety..

or compliance with current BS7671 regulations).. 

 

Without seeing exactly what you have fitted, your situation sounds to me a bit like Six-of-one and Half-a-dozen-of-the-other!!!

 

Dubious over-zealous electricians not wiling to put their signature on a document that could later come back and bite them!

and Lazy, complacent Landlords not bothering to undertake any electrical testing unless forced to do so by legal requirements! 

 

Still trying to figure out how a 1 bedroom flat needs 7 circuits???:C

And how a property over 50years old has no prior electrical test certificates? :C

 

For the record I replaced an 8 circuit CU, (equipped with 8xRCBO's), in a standard Semi-detached, 2bed + box room, last week..

Total cost labour + materials £600..

{in the Midlands, Not VAT registered}

 

ALSO..  just to add...

The outcome of and EICR is NOT "Pass" or "FAIL"..

 

It is "Satisfactory" or "Unsatisfactory" for continued use...

Which basically assesses any Immediate dangers or any potential dangers to the users..

 

In the event of someone being seriously injured due to an electrical related fault....

The person who signed the EICR stating it is satisfactory will carry a massive chunk of liability.

 

And the Landlord will probably pass the buck to the person who signed the EICR..!

     

Guinness

 

Edited by SPECIAL LOCATION

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
pewter

Detailed pictures of the board would help us work out if they could be rectified wouthout changing the board. Sometimes changing the board offers better value.

 

My initial thoughts are,  the items could be rectified OR it is in such a bad state he has pulled up thing on it because it would be best replaced.

 

My prices start at

£240 for EICR  (that is the minmum i want for my day to spend 4-6 hours on site and 1-2 hours on computer doing paperwork)

£550 for fuseboard (£200-250 materials 8 hours on site and 1-2 at home on paperwork)

 

My prices can increase depending on,

how far it is from my base

parking

the logisitcs of doing the job (up a tower block with a 10 min journey to the van)

the tennants ( if the place stinks with dogs running around my price increases)

 

What is your time worth?

 

pay him £660 and its all done for 5 years

 

or

 

pay for a new EICR and you might get the same outcome.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ElectricSpecs

@SPECIAL LOCATION I did read on one of my inventories a note written on the electric parts - probably the CU  -that the last check was either done or due in 2002

Re passing the buck I know this is what people start thinking as the country increasingly enters a blame game culture but you couldn't reasonably expect a landlord who is a layman wrt electrics to know that an installation is safe, they have to delegate that to a specalist

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ElectricSpecs

I wouldn't regard a landlord as dubious just because they havent had eicrs carries out previously. There are many choices in life that we all make wrt risk etc. It may be that a landlord has viewed the installation and while not a qualified specialist has seen that things do not look obvisouly wrong - exposed wires burnt elements etc. I'm sure with your training and background such a view may seem laise faire but it is probably how a large chunk of the populous live

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ElectricSpecs

@pewter Thanks for your view. Yes whether the issues that are genuniely C2s are servicable is my dilema. You rates sound a bit higher but I see that you are in essex so probably london rates more of less. My time right now sadly doesnt seem to be worth a whole lot which is largely a result of this pandemic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Murdoch
6 hours ago, ElectricSpecs said:

 

Sorry it has taken a while but this is the current installation

980462647_currentsetup2.thumb.jpg.8f78ddbc28ba20fe32975b0ca71ffc78.jpg

 

I very much doubt this dates from 1968 as i wouldnt have thought CUs with RCDs existed back then

 

Really need a better picture just showing the fuseboard - but that board dates from the 1990's is my guess

10 hours ago, ElectricSpecs said:

investment maybe though i doubt it adds much if anything to the selling price.

 

Its a 1 bed flat not a house and the EICR cost £140, CU quoted at £660 inc vat. Thats on the south coast. Don't know how long on site as I wasnt present. Think from looking at the report it has 7 circuits.

 

Reason I say lower spec is because electrician originally (prior to the EICR) said he fits RCBO and additional surge protection but when quizzed said that this price was for cheaper alternative (think called rccd) and without surge protection.

 

TBH I think you should bite the bullet and get it done and make sure you get the Part P compliance too

 

The "south coast" is a VERY big place - can you be more specific

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

Terms of UseWe have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.