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Murdoch

Been meaning to raise this for a while for comments

 

Anyone else think that the C3 "Improvement Required" is an error?

 

Surely that should say "improvement recommended"

 

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Andy™

section F of of the EICR template in 7671 says 'recommended' so id agree

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Fleeting

I always thought recommended was an error, far better to say required.

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Andy™
19 minutes ago, Fleeting said:

I always thought recommended was an error, far better to say required.

 

but by saying 'required' then youre implying something must be done when in reality it doesnt. recommedation definately, but you cant force everything to change their 17th edition instll to 18th just because the regs have changed even though doing so isnt really going to improve the safety of the installation

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Murdoch
36 minutes ago, Fleeting said:

I always thought recommended was an error, far better to say required.

 

 

We have a plastic CU - so a C3 and you are saying a replacement is required - I don't agree with you

 

If this was implemented then about 90% of the UK housing stock would need improvements - which they don't

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Fleeting

Recommend is wishy washy.

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Murdoch
52 minutes ago, Fleeting said:

Recommend is wishy washy.


recommend saves people from the questionable tactics of dodgy sparks saying work is required, which in reality isn’t 

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Fleeting

Just my personal opinion.

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Murdoch
2 minutes ago, Fleeting said:

Just my personal opinion.


BS 7671 is not retrospective ...... so nobody can use EICR code C3’s to make people have work done 

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Fleeting
14 minutes ago, Murdoch said:


BS 7671 is not retrospective ...... so nobody can use EICR code C3’s to make people have work done 

I am well aware of your initial fact how is it relevant. You also need to remember the suggested Reporting format in BS7671 is included in an Appendix, they are not Regulations so based on that you can put your own interpretation to Code 3.

Edited by Fleeting

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Murdoch
15 minutes ago, Fleeting said:

I am well aware of your initial fact how is it relevant. You also need to remember the suggested Reporting format in BS7671 is included in an Appendix, they are not Regulations so based on that you can put your own interpretation to Code 3.


so every site you go to that doesn’t meet the 18th edition is dangerous and must be updated? 
 

I don’t think so

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Sharpend

Whether it’s an appendix or not is irrelevant isn’t it, it’s contained within the Book which is considered to be the regulations the appendix’s are additional supportive material are they not? 

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Fleeting
10 minutes ago, Sharpend said:

Whether it’s an appendix or not is irrelevant isn’t it, it’s contained within the Book which is considered to be the regulations the appendix’s are additional supportive material are they not? 

Well it is relevant as the content of the Appendix is not a Regulation nor does it support any Regulations. I am the company QS for the NICEIC and ECA and our Report format does not fully follow what is laid out in BS7671. I have been questioned about this on several occasions and been encouraged to follow suit with the Regulations however both parties understand this cannot be enforced.

34 minutes ago, Murdoch said:


so every site you go to that doesn’t meet the 18th edition is dangerous and must be updated? 
 

I don’t think so

I don't recall stating this you are judging me and making assumptions. 

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Sharpend
17 minutes ago, Fleeting said:

Well it is relevant as the content of the Appendix is not a Regulation nor does it support any Regulations. I am the company QS for the NICEIC and ECA and our Report format does not fully follow what is laid out in BS7671. I have been questioned about this on several occasions and been encouraged to follow suit with the Regulations however both parties understand this cannot be enforced.

 

Whilst they can encourage you to use the BS7671 report form it can not be enforced-true, but are you adding or subtracting from the form? 

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Fleeting

In no way are we detracting from the suggested format in fact we are reinforcing it. This does not mean we have altered the definition of Code 3 which remains the same but what @Murdoch may be suspecting we have altered, my take on the Code 3 definition was personal opinion.

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Sharpend

So if you are going above and beyond the format for reporting then don’t see an issue, what you report on is your prerogative providing there’s a minimum of compliance with  BS7671? 

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SPECIAL LOCATION
2 hours ago, Fleeting said:

Recommend is wishy washy.

 

Bottom line is...

 

If there is NO immediate danger present and NO potential danger..    (C1's,  C2's)

 

and it does NOT make an installation unsatisfactory for continual use..

 

Then there cannot be any urgency or requirement to amend / update anything...

especially as BS7671 is non-statutory!!

 

Although some improvements may be possible or recommend to bring an installation up to comply with a newer standard of the regs.

which IMHO is what a C3 is for.

 

 

Guinness  

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Murdoch
9 hours ago, Fleeting said:

my take on the Code 3 definition was personal opinion.

 

and is different to the intended point of a C3 - so why differ from the information in BS 7671?

 

Odd to say the least

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Fleeting
1 hour ago, Murdoch said:

 

and is different to the intended point of a C3 - so why differ from the information in BS 7671?

 

Odd to say the least

It is my opinion I feel it is poorly worded so I am not sure why you believe it to be odd we all have differing opinions.

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Sharpend
34 minutes ago, Fleeting said:

It is my opinion I feel it is poorly worded so I am not sure why you believe it to be odd we all have differing opinions.

 

so does this mean that you gain extra work from a job through your different interpretation of what is written albeit you are changing the interpretation to a new meaning? 

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Fleeting
1 minute ago, Sharpend said:

 

so does this mean that you gain extra work from a job through your different interpretation of what is written albeit you are changing the interpretation to a new meaning? 

Not at all as previously stated our Code interpretation is the same as BS7671 and it is rare to be asked to rectify Code 3 issues although it does happen. We Code 3 plastic consumer units stating it does not require rectification although we rarely touch the domestic market.

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Murdoch
1 hour ago, Fleeting said:

Not at all as previously stated our Code interpretation is the same as BS7671 and it is rare to be asked to rectify Code 3 issues although it does happen. We Code 3 plastic consumer units stating it does not require rectification although we rarely touch the domestic market.

 

My issue is the large number of sparks using C2 instead of C3 .............

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Fleeting
9 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

 

My issue is the large number of sparks using C2 instead of C3 .............

Thats the way of it at the moment too many people with no competence or experience with some sort of testing qualification and using Guide books to compensate for their lack of understanding. Back in the early 90s when I got heavily involved with testing testers were pretty light on the ground people just avoided it but now it's a free for all aided in part by the YouTube monkeys.

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binky
22 minutes ago, Fleeting said:

Thats the way of it at the moment too many people with no competence or experience with some sort of testing qualification and using Guide books to compensate for their lack of understanding. Back in the early 90s when I got heavily involved with testing testers were pretty light on the ground people just avoided it but now it's a free for all aided in part by the YouTube monkeys.

 

THis is very true. Out of interest how would you like the C3 wording changed? 

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Murdoch
30 minutes ago, Fleeting said:

Thats the way of it at the moment too many people with no competence or experience with some sort of testing qualification and using Guide books to compensate for their lack of understanding. Back in the early 90s when I got heavily involved with testing testers were pretty light on the ground people just avoided it but now it's a free for all aided in part by the YouTube monkeys.

 

Well - as for guidebooks - my views on Codebreakers are well known - version 2 is slightly better than version 1 but far too many people use it verbatim

 

Never looked at Youtube for guides

 

The only guide that is constructive is the Electrical Safety Council Best Practice Guide No 4, issue 5 - which was generated by nearly all the electrical bodies - and as its free to anybody its pretty much the only document in the public domain that Joe Public can read and understand.

 

As for EICR's - I've just been asked to review one for a Landlord - the spark has given ALL the downlights a C2 but no reg number - so we are guessing what the problems are!!

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