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DiyPete

Running 6mm twin & earth cable.

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DiyPete

Hi, I am shifting our electric oven to the other side of the kitchen which will require a new run of 6mm twin and earth back to the consumer unit in the integral garage, the run is aprrox 11m with 9.5 m in the garage, the last bit through stud and plasterboard walling. Which is the best method to run it in the garage, cable clips butting up to the ceiling, 25mm plastic conduit, or plastic trunking 25mm x 16mm, there will be five 90 degree bends.

 

Thanks

Pete

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Geoff1946

I've yet to find an adhesive tape which doesn't give up when under continuous strain; I'm thinking stick on hooks, cable tie bases, etc, as well as electrical trunking. 

Put it under pressure, with a screw through and it continues to hold well, but on its own its useless.

Same applies to self adhesive velcro too.

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binky
8 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

 

That's what the adhesive is for isn't it! 😀

 

That said you see so many falling off the walls so we must be in the minority and once the wall plug is in then its so easy to add the metal clips!

 

They just don't make paint that sticks to walls properly these days :^O.

 

Using the metal clips would make installing the cable easier whilst firking about trying to get the lid on.

 

Notes 1-4 above are just saying where 'egress protection' is needed, and clarifying methods of achieving this. As I read it, I think I'm still right in thinking that this does not apply to all situations where cables are run in trunking along walls and ceilings, although there would certainly be no harm in using fire clips.

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Murdoch
6 hours ago, binky said:

 

Notes 1-4 above are just saying where 'egress protection' is needed, and clarifying methods of achieving this. As I read it, I think I'm still right in thinking that this does not apply to all situations where cables are run in trunking along walls and ceilings, although there would certainly be no harm in using fire clips.


that’s how I read it

 

just another example of a very poorly worded ref and quite how people think it says that all cables in all locations need metal clips is beyond me

 

the muppets who write the regs need to get revisions to the regs or new regs proof read by the Plain English Society before they go to draft print

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Fleeting
7 minutes ago, Murdoch said:


that’s how I read it

 

just another example of a very poorly worded ref and quite how people think it says that all cables in all locations need metal clips is beyond me

 

the muppets who write the regs need to get revisions to the regs or new regs proof read by the Plain English Society before they go to draft print

Have you not considered the difference between the 17th and 18th Ed changes whereby the 17th clearly indicates escape routes as a header, the 18th does not. This was much discussed prior to the release of the 18th Ed as one of the major changes.

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Murdoch
11 minutes ago, Fleeting said:

Have you not considered the difference between the 17th and 18th Ed changes whereby the 17th clearly indicates escape routes as a header, the 18th does not. This was much discussed prior to the release of the 18th Ed as one of the major changes.


yes, but the 18th edition hasn’t made it any clearer ....

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Fleeting
9 minutes ago, Murdoch said:


yes, but the 18th edition hasn’t made it any clearer ....

It is perfectly clear in both editions. Don't be offended maybe you should switch your default setting that the IET are muppets or idiots which probably clouds your judgement and consider what the Regulation is saying.

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Murdoch
8 minutes ago, Fleeting said:

It is perfectly clear in both editions


we better agree to disagree because it’s a clear as mud, in both

 

please tell me you didn’t contribute to the 18th edition wording

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Fleeting
20 minutes ago, Murdoch said:


we better agree to disagree because it’s a clear as mud, in both

 

please tell me you didn’t contribute to the 18th edition wording

Whether I did or did not will not change your opinion of the Regulations. 

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Murdoch
41 minutes ago, Fleeting said:

Whether I did or did not will not change your opinion of the Regulations. 


so you did then 

 

so many regulations are written poorly and open to interpretation - all the families affected by Grenfell know all about this

Edited by Murdoch

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Fleeting
19 minutes ago, Murdoch said:


so you did then 

 

so many regulations are written poorly and open to interpretation - all the families affected by Grenfell know all about this

I assume you accept the Regulation regarding consumer units in a dwelling whereby it shall be constructed from non-combustible materials or enclosed in such or words to that effect. This I assume you see no ambiguity with however, Regulation 421.1.201 cites the word "shall" which you have previously stated is not as definitive as "all" but you accept this Regulation? 

Edited by Fleeting

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binky
15 hours ago, Fleeting said:

This was much discussed prior to the release of the 18th Ed as one of the major changes.

 there are so many discussions when regs change and little concensus / precise guidance given afterwards,  so it's easy to miss many subtleties.   

 

Now, I've dug the regs book out and see what you mean about 'shall'  and the changes to the section  headings. However, that leaves a nice can of worms of what is the definition of 'premature collapse' ?

 

It is considered good practice to install cable clips with the nail below the cable - so is the nail good enough to support a cable in a fire? PVC trunking and conduit is fire retardent as I understand it, so would they support a cable long enough to prevent 'premature collapse' if not installed in an egress route as per Note1? 

Edited by binky

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Murdoch
13 hours ago, Fleeting said:

 This I assume you see no ambiguity with however, Regulation 421.1.201 cites the word "shall" which you have previously stated is not as definitive as "all" but you accept this Regulation? 


shall yes, but then cites examples which to most people means in the examples given it shall be done and in where the examples aren’t relevant it doesn’t need to be done

 

 

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Murdoch
1 hour ago, binky said:

Now, I've dug the regs book out and see what you mean about 'shall'  and the changes to the section  headings. However, that leaves a nice can of worms of what is the definition of 'premature collapse' ?

 

This is interesting - AND surely that wording should be in the actual regulation - I mean how many people reach for the regs (especially newly qualified) and bother to review the changes section.

 

For the record I always the correct clips irrespective of the location

 

I will continue to have little respect for the editors of the regs

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Fleeting
1 hour ago, Murdoch said:

 

This is interesting - AND surely that wording should be in the actual regulation - I mean how many people reach for the regs (especially newly qualified) and bother to review the changes section.

 

For the record I always the correct clips irrespective of the location

 

I will continue to have little respect for the editors of the regs

Aside from being an electrician I also work in fire safety and whilst buildings have defined escape routes it has been argued that almost anywhere in a building could be included as an escape route, defined or not. If you are in a toilet, kitchen or anywhere and an evacuation situation occurs then the footfall from your location can be deemed your escape path. 

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binky
2 minutes ago, Fleeting said:

Aside from being an electrician I also work in fire safety and whilst buildings have defined escape routes it has been argued that almost anywhere in a building could be included as an escape route, defined or not. If you are in a toilet, kitchen or anywhere and an evacuation situation occurs then the footfall from your location can be deemed your escape path. 

 

Dead end rooms such as toilets and bedrooms are not escape routes, they are places to escape from. How long are you likely to be in such a room with a fire? 

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Fleeting

They are not defined escape routes but if as you say they are places to escape from they therefore create part of your escape route. The duration in which you occupy the space isn't relevant I was just pointing out that there is more to escape routes than those which are defined as such.

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SPECIAL LOCATION
45 minutes ago, Fleeting said:

They are not defined escape routes but if as you say they are places to escape from they therefore create part of your escape route. The duration in which you occupy the space isn't relevant I was just pointing out that there is more to escape routes than those which are defined as such.

 

So...   if  "Duration" is not relevant...

How do we know how long is long enough when evaluating if something will fail "Prematurely"...????  :C

 

Quote

i.e.  Premature: Occurring, growing, or existing before the customary, correct, or assigned time; uncommonly or unexpectedly early:

 

Perhaps you could enlighten us with your wisdom as to exactly what is the measure of "premature failing" that you consider 521.10.202 refers..

 

Should our cables remain fixed if all other structures on a wall have been consumed by fire..?

Should our cables still be fixed if the roof has collapsed...? 

Should our cables be the last things standing after a property has been raised to the ground..?

Should our cable fixings outlast other "fire barriers"..?

Should our fixings exceed the expected times for people to evacuate a building, (e.g. ref emergency lighting durations)..?

etc..

etc..?

 

Getting back to fundamental principles, 131...  when designing, installing & testing electrical installations.. 

the bottom line is  ensure it fails-safe and protects People, Property & Livestock...

 

IMHO premature failing of cables fixed to walls isn't going to be protecting a property very much...?

As the fire is already raging through the timbers, etc..

 

But rather protecting people & livestock....   

who 99% of the time will be looking at escape routes and the evacuation times needed to use that route..

and/or emergency services who may need to access a property with known persons still trapped...

 

 

But the average single entrance domestic garage..  (to which this thread refers)...

would need one-helluva big fire to see even bog standard plastic cable clips melt from the wall before someone can walk a few meters to get out!!

And the average emergency service person will soon figure if they really need to enter the said garage..

where our cables are still probably causing little or no obstruction..

compared to the old sofa, kids bikes, black & decker workmate, freezer, golf clubs, half roll of carpet off cuts, part used paint tins, lawn mower, dads tool box,  etc.. etc..

 

The question the OP was asking about is a bit of 6.0mm in a garage..

NOT a whole bunch of cables plastic strapped on the underside of some cable tray across a 300m long warehouse!

 

:shakehead

:popcorn

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Murdoch
2 hours ago, Fleeting said:

Aside from being an electrician I also work in fire safety and whilst buildings have defined escape routes it has been argued that almost anywhere in a building could be included as an escape route, defined or not. If you are in a toilet, kitchen or anywhere and an evacuation situation occurs then the footfall from your location can be deemed your escape path. 


a toilet, kitchen or anywhere are unlikely to be an escape route

 

i do think some people go out of their way to complicate matters/ or should I say create paid work for themselves

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binky
1 hour ago, Fleeting said:

They are not defined escape routes but if as you say they are places to escape from they therefore create part of your escape route.

 

 They aren't defined as escape routes becuase they aren't escape routes. We protect the actual escape routes so that having exited a dead end room, people have a safe egress route and firemen have a safe route to access the fire within the building. 

 

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binky
2 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

 

 

i do think some people go out of their way to complicate matters/ or should I say create paid work for themselves

 

the phrase you are looking for is 'frightened little children' ie those who are so scared of getting things wrong, they make everyone elses life miserable with rediculous interepretation of rules and regs

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Fleeting
28 minutes ago, SPECIAL LOCATION said:

 

So...   if  "Duration" is not relevant...

How do we know how long is long enough when evaluating if something will fail "Prematurely"...????  :C

 

 

Perhaps you could enlighten us with your wisdom as to exactly what is the measure of "premature failing" that you consider 521.10.202 refers..

 

Should our cables remain fixed if all other structures on a wall have been consumed by fire..?

Should our cables still be fixed if the roof has collapsed...? 

Should our cables be the last things standing after a property has been raised to the ground..?

Should our cable fixings outlast other "fire barriers"..?

Should our fixings exceed the expected times for people to evacuate a building, (e.g. ref emergency lighting durations)..?

etc..

etc..?

 

Getting back to fundamental principles, 131...  when designing, installing & testing electrical installations.. 

the bottom line is  ensure it fails-safe and protects People, Property & Livestock...

 

IMHO premature failing of cables fixed to walls isn't going to be protecting a property very much...?

As the fire is already raging through the timbers, etc..

 

But rather protecting people & livestock....   

who 99% of the time will be looking at escape routes and the evacuation times needed to use that route..

and/or emergency services who may need to access a property with known persons still trapped...

 

 

But the average single entrance domestic garage..  (to which this thread refers)...

would need one-helluva big fire to see even bog standard plastic cable clips melt from the wall before someone can walk a few meters to get out!!

And the average emergency service person will soon figure if they really need to enter the said garage..

where our cables are still probably causing little or no obstruction..

compared to the old sofa, kids bikes, black & decker workmate, freezer, golf clubs, half roll of carpet off cuts, part used paint tins, lawn mower, dads tool box,  etc.. etc..

 

The question the OP was asking about is a bit of 6.0mm in a garage..

NOT a whole bunch of cables plastic strapped on the underside of some cable tray across a 300m long warehouse!

 

:shakehead

:popcorn

I was referring to what can be considered an escape route. In terms of fire safety you have defined escape routes and routes of passage leading to the defined routes this is likely to encompass most of the floor space. The space of time a person occupies this space is not a concern as it does not change the fact of whether it is or is not a route of escape. My comment was not referring to the length of time that cable support will collapse.

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SPECIAL LOCATION
On 30/04/2021 at 17:23, Fleeting said:

Fixings will need to be as such that the cable will not prematurely collapse in the event of a fire.

 

14 minutes ago, Fleeting said:

I was referring to what can be considered an escape route. In terms of fire safety you have defined escape routes and routes of passage leading to the defined routes this is likely to encompass most of the floor space. The space of time a person occupies this space is not a concern as it does not change the fact of whether it is or is not a route of escape. My comment was not referring to the length of time that cable support will collapse.

 

May I suggest you don't actual remember what you have already posted...

have a quick  re-read of the third post on this thread...

your first comment..   (I've copied it above for you..)

 

Which is how you also brought around the discussion of escape routes etc...

as you have been have been the one quoting interpretations of 521.10.202 -vs- 521.11.201,

 

So will you know please answer my question..?

Can you enlighten us with your wisdom as to exactly what is the measure of "premature failing" that you consider 521.10.202 refers..

 

Should our cables remain fixed if all other structures on a wall have been consumed by fire..?

Should our cables still be fixed if the roof has collapsed...? 

Should our cables be the last things standing after a property has been raised to the ground..?

Should our cable fixings outlast other "fire barriers"..?

Should our fixings exceed the expected times for people to evacuate a building, (e.g. ref emergency lighting durations)..?

etc..

 

Please note we are referring to PVC 6.0mm T&E, 

which is a commonly used circuit cable in many domestic situations. which are often run though domestic single entrance garages..

Which is what the original question was enquiring about..

 

Or are you unable to offer an actual real world interpretation of how these regs are applied...     to a real genuine question..

Rather than just arguing meanings and interpretations..    without any actual examples of implementation..?

 

How soon is premature in your interpretation?

:C

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Murdoch
43 minutes ago, binky said:

 

the phrase you are looking for is 'frightened little children' ie those who are so scared of getting things wrong, they make everyone elses life miserable with rediculous interepretation of rules and regs


I think it’s simply a problem endemic in the UK where something that should be written as black or white is written in some odd grey colour and open to interpretation. 
 

The DCLG are very guilty of this 

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Fleeting

Yes I remember what I posted I was later considering an escape route being more complicated that just the defined escape routes which may or may not have bought about the Regulation change. The duration for premature collapse will be variable whereby a BD4 route may require 2 hours before premature collapse takes place.

Edited by Fleeting

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SPECIAL LOCATION
23 minutes ago, Fleeting said:

Yes I remember what I posted I was later considering an escape route being more complicated that just the defined escape routes which may or may not have bought about the Regulation change. The duration for premature collapse will be variable whereby a BD4 route may require 2 hours before premature collapse takes place.

 

Which confirms once again it is mostly irrelevant waffle you state in context the the OP's question...

 

i.e. in relation to  a bit of 6.0mm through a single entry domestic garage....  :shakehead

 

Its not rocket science to figure out what and where any escape routes are....

how many persons would typically be living, sleeping, occupying or doing other tasks within the garage..

and/or what will or won't fail prematurely, presenting any risk of danger to any persons..

 

So lets try again...  from your initial post...

"Fixings will need to be as such that the cable will not prematurely collapse in the event of a fire."

 

How soon is too soon for premature collapse in a single entry domestic garage..

that makes you even raise the point back on post 3?

 

( Note: there is little point waffling about BD4 routes...   as most of us are well aware of things like..

BD2 – Low density occupation, difficult conditions of evacuation

BD3 – High density occupation, easy conditions of evacuation

BD4 – High density occupation, difficult conditions of evacuation

etc..  etc..   blah..  blah..  blah..  )

 

Now I don't know of many single entry domestic garages that are..   

"High density occupation, difficult conditions of evacuation"

 

I would suggest  that 2hrs is a bit of an irrelevant duration in this instance...  :C?

 

So lets not overcomplicate a simple question..

 

How long do you think this bit of 6.0mm needs to stay clipped to the garage wall..

that also made you bring up 521.10.202?

 

:coffee   

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