EICR - No CPC - How would you code this?

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Madasafish

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Domestic small Apartment

A lighting circuit is protected by a 6 amp RCBO and has a CPC to all the ceiling lights. There is an old two way switch circuit at the top and bottom of the stairs using T&E with the old coloured cables of red, black and copper earth. Because there is no fourth cable and the complexity of changing that wire, the sleeved earth cable is being used as a strapper between the two switches. The recessed backing boxes are metal and the faceplates are plastic. The switch face plates recessed screw heads have plastic caps inserted. According to the 18th Edition wiring regulation on Page 58 Regulation 411.3.1.1 - There are no exposed conductive parts - therefore a CPC is not required.

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cpc in T&E isnt insulated, its only sheathed. L&N are insulated & sheathed
cpc copper wiring is not insulated through a cable it is bare therefore someone connecting in the future thinking the copper was an earth would likely put current on the class 1 housing of some new equipment ie a light etc, there fore the housing would go live. creating a dangerous area. and also someone or something cutting the cable no cpc would be there thus the fuse or circuit breaker would not be able to operate and cut of the supply due to no earth in that cable. requires the cabel changing to 3 core and earth 

 
The only fixes for this then to avoid a C2 is...

1.  Rewire those 2 switches with 3 core and earth -  Decoratively, not practical at the moment.

2.  Run a single insulated earth from the upper switch to a nearby ceiling earth and change the internal wiring for both switches - Again, Decoratively not practical at the moment.

3.  Disconnect the upper switch, blank it off. Disconnect lower switch from the upper switch and just use the lower switch which does have an earth. Decoratively practical.

Any other ideas?

 
The only fixes for this then to avoid a C2 is...

1.  Rewire those 2 switches with 3 core and earth -  Decoratively, not practical at the moment. couldnt you pull down exisitng channel with 1mm 3 core and earth between the points would have to lift the floor boards and floor coverings near the landing drop but is sometimes possible to go same route in wall as long as channel not dented or damaged.

2.  Run a single insulated earth from the upper switch to a nearby ceiling earth and change the internal wiring for both switches - Again, Decoratively not practical at the moment. the issue just the fact of no earth its the fact the copper uninsulated earth wire has live power fed down it the earth in that cable should not be used for live current under any circumstances.

3.  Disconnect the upper switch, blank it off. Disconnect lower switch from the upper switch and just use the lower switch which does have an earth. Decoratively practical. possible to do but could be a pain in the arris when getting up in middle of night to turn landind light on.

Any other ideas?
see my replies in red  ;)

 
2.  Run a single insulated earth from the upper switch to a nearby ceiling earth and change the internal wiring for both switches - Again, Decoratively not practical at the moment.

3.  Disconnect the upper switch, blank it off. Disconnect lower switch from the upper switch and just use the lower switch which does have an earth. Decoratively practical.

Any other ideas?


You can take an earth from a socket cct if that is easier, it hasn't got to go to the lighting cct.

You could use wireless switching gadgets.

 
3.  Disconnect the upper switch, blank it off. Disconnect lower switch from the upper switch and just use the lower switch which does have an earth. Decoratively practical. possible to do but could be a pain in the arris when getting up in middle of night to turn landind light on.

Point 1. Impractical to do at the moment. Tenants are in the property. The wall will need to be chased, floorboards lifted up and thereafter a complex route through studding. 

Point 2. No one has suggested that can't be done and is certainly not as messy as Point 1 but again it's will require some decoration upheaval.

Point 3. Downstairs is a basement area and really only used for storage so no one will be using it at night. It is the quickest and tidiest method so far and going forward, I can research a wireless switch that can be activated from a small battery remote at the top of the stairs. Which was another very good suggestion.

 
Point 4. Given that it is a basement/storage area downstairs, It has just occurred to me the easiest option of all is to keep the upstairs switch, change the earth cable being used as a strapper to the earth connection. Rewire the downstairs switch wires to suit and blank off the downstairs switch or have I missed something?

 
Point 4. Given that it is a basement/storage area downstairs, It has just occurred to me the easiest option of all is to keep the upstairs switch, change the earth cable being used as a strapper to the earth connection. Rewire the downstairs switch wires to suit and blank off the downstairs switch or have I missed something?


how about fitting a PIR and dispensing wth the switch? 

 
According to the 18th Edition wiring regulation on Page 58 Regulation 411.3.1.1 - There are no exposed conductive parts - therefore a CPC is not required.


Not if you read the whole of the reg:   

(such as the last two lines)

i.e. a CPC shall be run to and terminated at each point, excluding a 2core suspended lamp holder...

But you problem is not so much about needing a CPC or not..

It is actually using an uninsulated live conductor and how you achieve compliance with 416.1 ?

 
@binky: Not a good idea in this case as the upstairs hallway is open to the PIR if fitted as a replacement for the switch upstairs. It will be triggered by people using the upstairs hallway. If fitted downstairs, you would need to go downstairs to trigger it. 

 
The only fixes for this then to avoid a C2 is...

1.  Rewire those 2 switches with 3 core and earth -  Decoratively, not practical at the moment.

2.  Run a single insulated earth from the upper switch to a nearby ceiling earth and change the internal wiring for both switches - Again, Decoratively not practical at the moment.

3.  Disconnect the upper switch, blank it off. Disconnect lower switch from the upper switch and just use the lower switch which does have an earth. Decoratively practical.

Any other ideas?




As the inspector this is completely irrelevant to you - do the EICR with a C2, send with invoice and walk away. 

 
and also someone or something cutting the cable no cpc would be there thus the fuse or circuit breaker would not be able to operate and cut of the supply due to no earth in that cable


no requirement for that. can easily damage a cable and not hit the cpc even if there is one there

 
The only fixes for this then to avoid a C2 is...

1.  Rewire those 2 switches with 3 core and earth -  Decoratively, not practical at the moment. not your problem, thats landlord / whoever requested the EICR's problem. should have been done correctly to start with

2.  Run a single insulated earth from the upper switch to a nearby ceiling earth and change the internal wiring for both switches - Again, Decoratively not practical at the moment. could work to get you a cpc, however the problem isnt that you dont have one, its that the bare cpc is being used as a live conductor. brining a cpc from a different circuit, whilst it can be done, wont solve the problem

3.  Disconnect the upper switch, blank it off. Disconnect lower switch from the upper switch and just use the lower switch which does have an earth. Decoratively practical.

Any other ideas?


my red above. look at wireless switches, probably your only option other than replacing cables

 

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