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twin and earth used outside


monkey5

Question

ive seen the recent post about NICEIC passing someone even tho they used twin and earth outside. so thought id ask a question.

abit of info:

basically i did a CU change and then tested ring main IR test and got a really bad reading. tracked it down to a length of cable from a spurred socket in the living room (main socket for tv sky ect) to socket on the ring upstairs. disconnected both ends and made safe as customer didnt want wall damaging as just decorated. obviously they need new point in same area and after discussing possible routes the best way as to not damage any internal walls was to go from a socket in room upstairs thru wall to outside then down the wall then back thru wall straight into lounge socket. the socket in the room above is a radial from consumer unit just supplying the one socket point (not sure why theyve done this as its the opposite side of house and other sockets in same room are on the ring). it will go down the wall outside for about 3m on the front of the house.

Q1. would you use twin and earth clipped direct for this (customer wants cheapest option).

Q2. would you put it in conduit (think this looks worse than T&E clipped direct)

Q3.or would you use an alternative (i dont think swa will be needed and wont really look that good either)

thanks for you opinions and advice in advance

wayne

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See it used all the time and the onsite guide implies you can use it but I think it degrades too much and so do the clips so pop a bit of conduit up and clip it well.

Mike.

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If fact the (16th Ed) OSG in appendix 3 says T&E is generally suitable "on exterior surface walls, boundary walls and the like"with just a comment that protection from sunlight may be necessary.

Personally I would NEVER use it. I would come out into a extrior JB and back fill the hole with gripfill. Do the same with the other cable and bridge between with NYY (HiTuff) in black.

I am not sure why you don't just leave this on the downstairs circuit though?

Martin

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 12:13 ---------- Previous post was made at 12:11 ----------

OOPs yes I do bad IR reading

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Generally manufacturers recommend that grey T+E should not be used where it will be exposed to sunlight ......

Have you a document to back this up?

I would like to see it in black and white now that my attention has been drawn to consider this properly. I always agreed with your assertion, but that is no longer enough for me I want documents. I want to be sure one way or the other.

Martin

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I`m not going to get TOO involved in this debate.....I will simply say that I don`t particularly like using FTE outside. That doesn`t mean it isn`t allowed, just that my personal preference is not to do it.

Ash: could I nicely / politely / without causing offence suggest winding your neck in a little? The point about the wiki page being written, and with reference to, other countries was a valid one. SpecLoc has, over the years, demonstrated his knowledge and capability, to the majority of members. If you have a serious problem with him, and his posting attitude, the forum does provide a system to "ignore" certain members, and their posts.

I didn`t see you as being "flamed", it appeared to be more of a correction. The point about using BS reference material, rather than a "ten second" search of the internet, wasIMO a valid one. Perhaps some people get upset when an error is pointed out to them?

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so what your all saying re twin and earth i needent have spent money on expensive armoured to supply the pond in 4mm armoured, i could have used 4mm t and e in the underground duct clipped up the bungalow wall, through the loft and into the c/u/rcbo/mcb devices. blimey i wish i hadent wasted all the money on the armoured now!! :(

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so what your all saying re twin and earth i needent have spent money on expensive armoured to supply the pond in 4mm armoured, i could have used 4mm t and e in the underground duct clipped up the bungalow wall, through the loft and into the c/u/rcbo/mcb devices. blimey i wish i hadent wasted all the money on the armoured now!! :(

Bet you wish you'd laid the blocks right way round on your pond too lmao :slap:coat

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T&E is not really suitable for the outside environment due to it have low mechanical protection vaules

E.g impact, vermean

Which are all really important when installing a cable in any location. Selection of the right install method and cable is so important

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If I am clipping outside I use flex black or white depending on job. If building is yellow you could use artic in yellow.

Batty

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I would never use pvc twin and earth outside, clipped direct, or in trunking, nor in conduit.

My reason for this is, this cable is not manufactured, or intended for outside use.

As the meerkats say simples.

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I`m not going to get TOO involved in this debate.....I will simply say that I don`t particularly like using FTE outside. That doesn`t mean it isn`t allowed, just that my personal preference is not to do it.

Ash: could I nicely / politely / without causing offence suggest winding your neck in a little? The point about the wiki page being written, and with reference to, other countries was a valid one. SpecLoc has, over the years, demonstrated his knowledge and capability, to the majority of members. If you have a serious problem with him, and his posting attitude, the forum does provide a system to "ignore" certain members, and their posts.

I didn`t see you as being "flamed", it appeared to be more of a correction. The point about using BS reference material, rather than a "ten second" search of the internet, wasIMO a valid one. Perhaps some people get upset when an error is pointed out to them?

No problem, I'm gonna back down from this discussion and I've put him on my ignore list. This is a request though, Special, could you add me to your list, I think that would be best

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T&E is not really suitable for the outside environment due to it have low mechanical protection vaules

E.g impact, vermean

Which are all really important when installing a cable in any location. Selection of the right install method and cable is so important

Notwithstanding, costs, customers budget, aesthetics, length of run, height on wall, direction wall is facing, (direct sunlight shade etc..)

etc

etc

FACT:-

a few meters of T&E run to a light fitting on a shaded external wall of a house will most likely last 20+ years without....

exploding.

electrocuting someone.

disintegrating.

tripping power from the whole installation.

looking excessively ugly or costing an arm and a leg!

a competent electrician should be able to evaluate the application of any accessory or cable he/she is installing..

and meet the customers requirements without going overkill on the safety.

whereas a long run low down a wall to a shed with 6+hrs per day of direct sunlight, would not be a wise location for T&E!

NOT all electrical work is 'Black & White'..

you can't do that but you can do this..

and if you do the other you must be wrong!!!!

Some T&E is at greater risk in the loft or under the floorboards from Mice, Rats, Squirrels etc...

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I agree with the above and am against using it outside, but there is no legal reason it seems to not do it if you take into account the environmental factors and make allowances for them. And you take into account its likelihood to be impacted by anything, especially ladders when used at height.

I use that new Hi-tuff stuff NYY cable.

Martin

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H07 RNF (and similar) flex is another good alternative

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Bet you wish you'd laid the blocks right way round on your pond too lmao :slap:coat
i did lay the blocks the correct way round actually !!
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From an "Observation " only point of view ( Non scientific) , Twin/earth appears to be OK away from direct sunlight .

I also recall from somewhere that black flex was impervious to UV affects.

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I recently took some TW/E from an overhead that had been in 40 odd years perhaps i should try and contact the sparks that installed it to tell him not to do it again.

:^O

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I tend to use SY cable in preference. I like the earth sheath as a safety feature, it's easier to deal with than SWA and is not so visible.

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ok point taken batty i will use flex next time :^O

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Hey guys,

Flat T&E can be used outside but will degrade pretty quickly becoming brittle due to changes in weather and temp, the sunlight being the biggest culprit. Personally I would use Hi-tuf or tuf sheath which is an XLPE insulated PVC bedded non-armoured multicore cable. Basically SWA without the steel. This will withstand the weathering and give a degree of mechanical protection. Also easy to terminate. XLPE Insulated, PVC Bedded and Tuf-Sheathed Non Armoured Cables :: Doncaster Cables - Manufacturers and Suppliers of Cables Meeting British and European Specifications

:good luck:

Regards

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It amazes me that you're all debating this reg, this quote, this etc. Go out there and look at the stuff that's been installed outside, then make a real educated opinion after seeing it's state whether you believe it can be used or not. Sheesh, you guy's make this trade far more difficult than it needs to be.

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i would use black conduit with T&E or SWA. i have done this on a few properties and it looks fine, just dont use white conduit...an eye-saw!!!

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Hi there,

is there any manufacturers data supporting that TW+E can't be used outside?

Regards

Jud

No, UV exposure may degrade the life expectancy of the cable, but so does heat and various other external influences. You should evaluate each installation on its individual merits to verify suitability Length of run, exposure to direct sunlight, expected circuit loading, risk of mechanical damage costs and any others you think relevant. If PVC T&E meets your spec then it can be installed on external walls.

Doc H.

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whilst i have no issue t&e clipped outside i'd only do it at out of reach level

and no lower.

i agree that t&e clipped neatly equal spacings etc is asentically better than tube/swa on a domestic property

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