Builders/plasterer's obsession with capping

[Ash]

Today I had a bit of an argument with the builder/carpenter/plaster guy who's doing the extension work on a house I'm currently working in.

I had to re-feed a switch where the original capping and wire went diagonal out of the safe zone, so I chiselled out the old wire and chiselled my path for the new wire. I then clipped the cable down. He then proceeded to tell me I needed to put capping over. I said, I will if you really want me to but it's not really necessary. He then tried to use "20+ years experience with electrician's on site" etc to prove me wrong.

Then came the "nailing in after the plaster is on" which he still believed would be a problem with RCD protection and the fact the capping wouldn't protect against that anyway.

This has happened twice to me now with plasterers, even after having a plasterer friend who's quite happy to plaster over my clipped cables.

Has anyone else had to deal with this, how do you convince them?

 

[batty]

I generally use some sort of protection be it conduit or capping or oval depends on job. Trouble is if you want to get cables out you will never have a chance if they are plastered in.

 

[Zeespark]

I use capping for certain things, and plastic oval conduit for others, simply to stop the sharp edge of a plasterers trowel from damaging My cables. It's not specified anywhere in the regs that it must be done, but I do like some form of protection for My cables from cack handed plasterers.

AndyGuinness

 

[M107]

I just get the book & ask them to find the reg that say's capping must be used, or ask if they would like me to have a word with their mate who thinks he knows how it should be done, so I can point him in the right direction so he doesnt look a muppet in the future when advising sparks.

That normaly works.

 

[Ash]

I use capping for certain things, and plastic oval conduit for others, simply to stop the sharp edge of a plasterers trowel from damaging My cables. It's not specified anywhere in the regs that it must be done, but I do like some form of protection for My cables from cack handed plasterers.AndyGuinness

I tend to just clip because most of the jobs I do, I usually end up doing the plastering after, but with this, the builder is even doing the holes for all the sockets and downlighters.

The other thing he's making me do, which I don't mind, is making me attach wood between the structure and put a metal backbox in rather than just using drylining boxes. It's a bit strange.

What's annoying is that now I'm gonna have to go to my wholesaler at some point and get 1 length of capping

 

[batty]

Why strange thats the way i always do it?

 

[Zeespark]

The drylining boxes arent generally as strong as metal back box and noggin installation.

AndyGuinness

 

[sellers]

I never use capping, hate the stuff!

Just give him the BRB and let him waste his day trying to find the reg

 

[Ash]

Why strange thats the way i always do it?

Dunno, just never really seen it done. I'm not against it though, drylining boxes can be annoying to screw in

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Today I had a bit of an argument with the builder/carpenter/plaster guy who's doing the extension work on a house I'm currently working in.I had to re-feed a switch where the original capping and wire went diagonal out of the safe zone, so I chiselled out the old wire and chiselled my path for the new wire. I then clipped the cable down. He then proceeded to tell me I needed to put capping over. I said, I will if you really want me to but it's not really necessary. He then tried to use "20+ years experience with electrician's on site" etc to prove me wrong.

Then came the "nailing in after the plaster is on" which he still believed would be a problem with RCD protection and the fact the capping wouldn't protect against that anyway.

This has happened twice to me now with plasterers, even after having a plasterer friend who's quite happy to plaster over my clipped cables.

Has anyone else had to deal with this, how do you convince them?

Righto Ashy kins......

you did tell me to ignore you a while ago;\

But cuz I am a trouble maker who loves to argue....

I couldn't resist sticking me oar in..... ]

Personally I generally do put some form of capping/conduit over my cables because it does make it easier to ensure plonker plasterers don't knacker your hard work...

on occasions I don't bother...

if its a really old uneven wall where the thickness from brick to plaster goes think & think along the run

it can be a PITA trying to get some capping to sit flat!!!

AND anyway..

I dont like plasters builders etc.. telling sparkies how to do their job....

So..

here's the info you may want to refer them to..... :x

1/

If they start spouting impact by nails tell em to look at PVC capping...

Tower PVC Channel 38mm x 2m | Screwfix.com

that ain't gonna stop no blinkin nails is it????

2/

If they say its not a recognised method of installation....

tell em to look at page 264 of the BRB "Installation methods"

look at methods 57 & 58....

57= single or multicore cable embedded direct into masonry..

58= single or multicore cable embedded direct into masonry with added mechanical protection.

BOTH methods are acceptable,

assuming you are happy with the external influences in relation to installation / maintenance.. 522.8.1 pg 101

3/

If he still starts spouting off about oh is this a new reg or practice then?

tell him to look at older regs books as well

Brown book page 210

Inst method 1 No 2, (sheathed cables buried direct in masonry/plaster etc....)

Or even have a go at yellow book page 192

as above Inst method 1 No 2, Ditto!!!

so his 20+years can go stick his head up his own bum!!!

The bottom line is....

As said earlier 95%+ of my jobs I do cap..

But if YOU are happy with the installation method, and your cables all test out ok..

Ins Res etc....

You can sign quite confidently the certificate bit wot says..

to the best of my knowledge complies with BS7671 etc... etc...

GuinnessGuinness

p.s. I wont twit on you if you scoob me!!!! :Blushing :Blushing:Blushing:Blushing:slap:slap:slap:slap:slap:slap

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 01:25 ---------- Previous post was made at 01:09 ----------

I would just add with many modern walls now being dry lined, tacking a few clips to the wall to hold the cable in place before they dot & dabb the boards on will be just as effective as capping....

cuz the dry line board will now protect the cable from the finishing plasterers skim!

Horses for Courses as the saying goes! :Salute

 

[johninlondon1]

As a plasterer now studying to be an electrician and having worked with many trades, i have found it is the electrician with the most knowledge and understanding on most jobs and whatever they say they want I try best to accommodate.

 

[Ali]

I was always old that capping is to "protect the cables from the platerer's trowel". So sometimes my decision about capping depends on how much I trust the plasterer.

 

[a1]

I was always old that capping is to "protect the cables from the platerer's trowel".

That is correct, Ali.

 

[Andy™]

even better when they say the capping must be there to protect the cable from nails.... just remind them how you attach the stuff to the wall.. usually shuts them up

or tell them that your work is being done to 7671. if they want capping, its an optional extra and they will be charged for installing it

 

[NHES]

I to have had many debates with plasters/builders about capping. My last rewire job i did not cap due to the fact the capping would have been standing proud of the plaster plus walls uneven etc so i clipped direct to the masonry (looked nice and neat clips all in line facing the same way etc), all my back boxs were chased out & the plaster said i should chase the cables into the masonry & cap them. So i explained to him that chasing every drop/rise out of the fabric of the building could compromise the structural strength of the building plus capping is not a requirement of the brb. Anyway after much debate his final "effort" was that HE might damage the cables when plastering, at this point the client is listening so i said to him if you cannot plaster patch without damaging the new cables/circuits then I know someone that can as you are not COMPETENT to do the job (if you could of seen his face) i just couldnt belive what i was hearing it was just ridiculas

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

I have always been under the impression that cables can be buried in plaster, but not in cement as it can attack the PVC. I have just had a good rummage around the interwebby and can find nothing to back that up,so i then looked up lime mortar and found nowt wrong with that. So it seems i have not 'had' to cover cables like i usually do.

I personally never clip cables on flat walls without a covering, usually chase in and use oval conduit, more work but i think a better job & stops the finish plaster from cracking over the cable. I used to use metal capping years ago but plasterers complained that their stuff would not stick to it like plastic capping. The only time i dont fit a cover is when putting cables in a chase on a finished wall that's to be made good, you would have to work hard to nick the cables then.

Last comment, if two identical houses were being built, one the sparky had all cable drops in conduit in chases and the other house the sparky had clipped everything, which house would you say had the better workmanship ?

 

[steptoe]

but, are you talking 20mm round with adaptors?

that is what I had to do all the time during my apprenticeship,

only exception was stone wall that couldnt be chased out, then normally 5/8 or 3/4 oval,

everything was chased out, and 35mm back boxes used for all fitting,

and we are not talking thermalite blocks, proper breeze blocks, or what was common too were what we called farmers friends,!! headbang

 

[jameseye12]

Just cap that plasterers' A$$ :Salute :Neil

 

[batty]

I have always been under the impression that cables can be buried in plaster, but not in cement as it can attack the PVC. I have just had a good rummage around the interwebby and can find nothing to back that up,so i then looked up lime mortar and found nowt wrong with that. So it seems i have not 'had' to cover cables like i usually do.I personally never clip cables on flat walls without a covering, usually chase in and use oval conduit, more work but i think a better job & stops the finish plaster from cracking over the cable. I used to use metal capping years ago but plasterers complained that their stuff would not stick to it like plastic capping. The only time i dont fit a cover is when putting cables in a chase on a finished wall that's to be made good, you would have to work hard to nick the cables then.

Last comment, if two identical houses were being built, one the sparky had all cable drops in conduit in chases and the other house the sparky had clipped everything, which house would you say had the better workmanship ?

Slips i think you may be right about cement attacking pvc. Call out on Friday to tripping circuit breaker. Ring main some cables going into concrete floor which probably was wooden when rewired. Anyway one cable is dead short live to earth and other cables ranging from 3meg ohm to about 14 meg ohm best. All white pvc probably done late 70's to early 80's now other cabling above floors is perfectly clear so either they have been damaged when concrete was put in or insulation is breaking down due to chemical in concrete not sure but a bit of rewireing is going to be necessary at some point.

 

[PC Electrics]

I have always been under the impression that cables can be buried in plaster, but not in cement as it can attack the PVC. I have just had a good rummage around the interwebby and can find nothing to back that up,so i then looked up lime mortar and found nowt wrong with that. So it seems i have not 'had' to cover cables like i usually do.I personally never clip cables on flat walls without a covering, usually chase in and use oval conduit, more work but i think a better job & stops the finish plaster from cracking over the cable. I used to use metal capping years ago but plasterers complained that their stuff would not stick to it like plastic capping. The only time i dont fit a cover is when putting cables in a chase on a finished wall that's to be made good, you would have to work hard to nick the cables then.

Last comment, if two identical houses were being built, one the sparky had all cable drops in conduit in chases and the other house the sparky had clipped everything, which house would you say had the better workmanship ?

Like you I have 'heard' that concrete attacks pvc cables, but also have nothing to back it up.

As to the two houses, I'd say neither. the one with conduit will have a more expensive installation, but the end result will be the same. I would be unwilling to pay extra for something that is neither necessary nor required by regulation and I suspect lots of other clients would say the same.