Wago connectors pulled on assessment

Talk Electrician Forum

Help Support Talk Electrician Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
SteveI think you have missed the "small print". Its not the case of the assessors being rogue its wago! To get them to comply the installer has to jump through the hoops regarding installation rules (from wago) and even then only mf at much reduced rating. i.e. they can not be used mf on a 32 A circuit (the 32A connectors can only be used up to 20A)!

To me it looks like their aim was to get a mf logo on their box rather than come up with a user friendly/workable solution.
I think it may be you that is confused, they certainly can be used on a 32A ring!!! Remember 2.5 T&E is rated for 20A, 40 in a ring, that's why we put a 2.5 Radial on 16A Breaker, and a ring on 32A.

The rules you speak of are only proper installation methods - not any esoteric high brow method!! The same installation 'rules' apply to 13A sockets, light fittings etc etc ad nauseum

 
I think it may be you that is confused, they certainly can be used on a 32A ring!!! Remember 2.5 T&E is rated for 20A, 40 in a ring, that's why we put a 2.5 Radial on 16A Breaker, and a ring on 32A.The rules you speak of are only proper installation methods - not any esoteric high brow method!! The same installation 'rules' apply to 13A sockets, light fittings etc etc ad nauseum
What I am discussing here is the question of maintenance free. Wagobox and wago connectors are NOT mf unless you derate the connectors and follow cumbersome installation instructions. They have also introduced aggregate current to further complicate using them as mf.

In my opinion this is a copout and is just going to confuse installers.

 
its not Jack,

a 2.5mm T&E cable is rated at what current?

a standard double socket is rated at what current?

a standard ring final circuit is NOT rated at 32A , common misconception,

choice,

either,

go do the maths,

or,

go do an apprenticeship.

 
its not Jack,a 2.5mm T&E cable is rated at what current?

a standard double socket is rated at what current?

a standard ring final circuit is NOT rated at 32A , common misconception,

choice,

either,

go do the maths,

or,

go do an apprenticeship.
Who said anything about 2.5 and ring mains. I am talking about wago 222 connectors which are rated 32a and 4mm and the wago 773173 which is rated 41a.

I think it's fair to assume that these connectors can be used at their rating?

However, stick them in a wagobox for an mf application and you have to derate them so you can only use them at 20a and 32a respectively. And again only if the aggregate current is less than 50a so two 773173 s and you again derate to 25A. (this is not my maths it's what's given in their small print!!)

Please read the link below, do the maths and then comment.

Advice and support

 
Last edited by a moderator:
The connectors are fine, its all about the aggregate current, so although I have never done this as I would use 2 anyway, but say you extend a ring main, it could be done in the 1 Wago Box, however this would not comply as MF as the aggregate current is too high, same job but using 2 Wago boxes no problem it's MF.

That's how I read it anyway.

 
wago derating.jpg

The connectors are fine, its all about the aggregate current, so although I have never done this as I would use 2 anyway, but say you extend a ring main, it could be done in the 1 Wago Box, however this would not comply as MF as the aggregate current is too high, same job but using 2 Wago boxes no problem it's MF.That's how I read it anyway.
I am bitter! headbang

Although wagobox is a forum sponsor I believe that to maintain its integrity the forum should allow factual truthful posts. So here it goes!!

For the past year wagobox has used lots of words to convince us that wagobox is at least as good as MF and that we should happily use it as such. However, wagobox now state in their FAQ: that "In order to meet the requirements of BS5733 for a Maintenance Free Accessory different limitation and instructions need to be adhered to when installing wagobox." The box has also been changed to have "new features".

Clearly they have not complied to date!!

TO enable their box to comply the instructions call for a derating (as can be seen in the attached page from wagobox).

Why cant wagobox just come clean and publicize the facts rather than sending out lots of misleading (at best confusing) messages that will lead to "misunderstanding"!

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Cactus Jack:

The administrators would request that you contact wagobox directly with your concerns (as they suggested to you previously) ; before making further comment on this thread.

I must admit to being concerned by your

I am bitter
- why would such an issue cause you bitterness? I fail to understand.Thank you

TEF management

 
Cactus Jack:The administrators would request that you contact wagobox directly with your concerns (as they suggested to you previously) ; before making further comment on this thread.

I must admit to being concerned by your - why would such an issue cause you bitterness? I fail to understand.

Thank you

TEF management
Hi Admin 4

I believe WAGOBOX should comment here on the forum as they have before. This is in everyones best interests.

I am bitter as for the past year I (and everyone else) have been using Wagobox as MF on WAGOBOX's assurance that it was at least as safe as BS5733 MF. Suddenly, wagobox have changed their tune and have announced that "product upgrades" and "enhanced insructions" were needed for wagobox to comply.

It cant be both ways i.e. comply before and need all these changes!

This means that all mf installations since Jan1 (and earlier?) fail to meet the requirements.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Cactus Jack.

I am given to understand that Wagobox are indeed preparing a response to your comments.

However, in light of the fact that you appeared to be getting very stressed and upset, then it seemed a good idea if you spoke to them yourself, and then commented.

 
Hi Folks,

I can see that the announcement of the new MF marked Wagobox has caused some interest. Specifically in why the instructions for BS5733-MF are different to BSEN60670-22.

Put simply they are two different standards. BSEN60670-22 is a Junction Box standard whilst BS5733 specifies general requirements for electrical accessories. Also, "BS" (British Standard) document is generally confined to the UK and some British territories, a "BS EN" (British Standard Euro Norm) document applies to many European countries and includes the UK. Consequently there are some geographical/historical differences between the documents, specifically the current ratings for different cable sizes. In BSEN60670-22 the ratings are different to those in BS5733.

So from the perspective of assembling a BSEN60670-22 Junction Box with maintenance free terminals, no change. But to assemble a BS5733-MF accessory then a different set of requirements need to be adhered to.

In effect the challenge for us was to do the necessary analysis and testing to assure ourselves that the Wagobox design was capable or being assembled and installed repeatedly such that the completed accessory would be reliably compliant to BS5733-MF.

(If you are familiar with the Wagobox design you know that the system is very configurable but also that there are several good design features that make repeatability easy to achieve. So completing the necessary work for BS5733 MF was going to take time but was not impossible).

The object of the amended instructions is to provide a route to assembling a BS5733 MF accessory (and not specifically a BSEN60670-22 junction box, though this is not lost in the completed accessory), so as there are differences between the two standards there are going to be differences between the instructions.

The most noticable of these is the catch lock on the Wagobox, BS5733 requires a locking mechanism so this has been added. The second is the new product marking that will be on the underside of the lid which will have all the markings and rating information required by BS5733.

With respect to the de-rating of the terminals. This has been done for two reasons.

Firstly because the test currents in BS5733 are lower than those in BSEN60670-22 (bear in mind that the purpose of the exercise is to assemble a BS5733 MF accessory).

And secondly because the cable clamp of the Wagobox will not work with 4mm Flex eg the 222 terminals are rated at 32A with 4mm flex and that size of cable will not fit into the cable gripper, therefore from an accessory point of view it would make no sense to indicate the use of a cable size that it is not physically possible to install. Consequently the BS5733 marking only indicates that which is relevant to a completed accessory, not what is possible to achieve with the terminals in other circumstances.

With respect to max aggregate current. An accessory that is supplied with moulded in terminals will also have a maximium aggregate current and this will work in the same way that it works with the Wagobox. For a junction box with a fixed number of terminals this limit will be a function of the current rating and the number of phase terminals, so can be fixed by the manufacturer and is not of any concern to the installer. For the Wagobox the configuration of the terminals is done by the electrician and so for the Wagobox this could be a concern.

Limiting the maximum aggregate current limits the amount of heat that can be generated within the enclosure. Each phase terminal (Lives, Neutrals and Switch lives) within an enclosure generate heat as there will always be a small resistance at any junction. The CPC (earth cable) will not be carrying any current in normal operation as the CPC only carries a current in the event of a fault and consequently does not generate heat in normal use.

(Note: in normal operation when the Wago terminals are operating within their current rating the amount of heat generated is small and the temperature rise within the Wagobox is < 40 deg C as required by BSEN60670-22 even when running at the maximum rated current of the terminals.)

So why is there an issue with generated heat for BS5733 Maintenance free accessories? In BS5733 there is a performance test that requires the accessory to be run at **twice the rated current** for 90 minutes. To pass this test the temperature between the accessory and the mounting surface measured at the worst position must not exceed 90 deg C at the end of the test period. Also there should be no damage to the accessory and cables that would impair it's continued safe operation.

(Quick reminder of the power equation: P=I2R. ie the amount of heat generated by a terminal increases exponentially with the increase in current!)

To assemble a Wagobox the electrician has to be aware of the maximimum permited aggregate current and how to apply this to the Wagobox when configuring the circuit. Compliance with this rating will ensure the assembled Wagobox will easily pass the above long duration overload test. Please be assured that this additional rating factor is not as complicated to adhere to as it might first appear. I will create a set of worked examples and post them on the website.

It is worth noting that other MF accessories have also de-rated the terminals from 32amps to 20 amps just to emphasis there is nothing sinister in doing this!

In summary, the Wagobox system can be used by an installer to create a BS5733-MF accessory providing the BS5733 requirements are adhered to and installation instructions are followed.

I hope this helps to answer any concerns but please do feel free to call if you would like to ask any further questions.

Many Thanks,

Ray.

Connexbox Ltd

01353 666011

 
I'm a vet, not an electrician but it makes perfect sense to me!

As I read it when used as a maintenance free joint the connector is down-rated to 20A. You can only have a total current of 50A in a single Wagobox and therefore if you are joining 2 legs on a 32A ring you need 2 boxes. Just because the breaker is rated higher matters diddly squat. The cable is rated 24A max, and that is assuming you clip it to the surface like a cowboy.

I can't see how it is any harder a concept than de-rating T&E when buried in insulation?

 
Ladies and Gentlemen: an explanation.

Concerns were raised that "Cactus Jack" was, in fact a supplier of an alternative product, and was attempting to undermine wagobox`s position, for his own personal gain.

This was put to the Cactus Jack, requesting he confirm or deny this. He was also asked to contact Wagobox directly, to talk to them.

He has not, at this moment, spoken to Wagobox, or confirmed / denied his real motive for the posts.

We would say to all members that, if your query is not covered here: #76

Then contacting Wagobox directly is probably the best bet for individual technical queries.

We welcome free discussion of topics.....but we do NOT tolerate members purporting to be what they are not, and stirring up confusion for their own personal gain. I trust this puts the matter to rest. Thank you.

Admin 4

 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top