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Shoreham Air Show


apprentice87

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apprentice87

Time air shows were banned i am afraid. How often do you read of spectators and others being killed for no other reason than the people flying the planes like to show off. Now a load of innocent people in a traffic jam on the A27 near shoreham were killed at about 1-30pm today when the plane crashed onto the road. One car was a daimler wedding hire car. One can only hope that the newly wedded couple were not aboard....

 

john...

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Andy™

it is tragedy, but everything has its risks. someone crashed a car last week. maybe all driving should be banned?

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apprentice87

Yes, but the HUGE difference is, someone driving a car consents to the risk they may be involved in an accident. A person driving alone the A27 most certainly DOES NOT consent to the risk that a person showing off in an aeroplane will crash onto the road. The person flying the plane was doing a "loop the loop" Not interested if the engine failed or whatever, if they were high enough they could have glided to a safe spot. A plane will glide one hell of a long way if high enough, ok, a plane of the type that crashed not so far. but that is all the more reason not to do silly things with it.

 

john..

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steptoe

John, you have a flawed argument,

First you say the driver of a car has consented to the risk, then you say they haven't simply because it wasn't another car/lorry/bus/whatever crashed into them.

Life is a risk,,  maybe we should ban living, that would solve it.

Maybe it's fate, a lot if people believe in it, I do, 

The stuff I've done and not killed myself yet, chance, luck, fate, call it what you want, but when my number is up, that's it, game over, no continues left, no extra lives, no bonus spins.

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apprentice87

What i am saying is, is you are driving a car, bike, whatever, it is reasonable foreseeable that you might be involved in a motor accident, NOT that a show off in a plane might crash into you.

 

In the same way, as electricians it is reasonable foreseeable that you might be electrocuted one day as a result of a fault, accident, lack of concentration, whatever. Compare this to someone killed as a result of one of the "pavement explosions" that are becoming more common for reasons you are all aware of. Not quite the same.

 

It is the same reason the "road rallies" of the 1970's were banned... The IOM TT races, the road is closed, if you chose to walk along it and get killed, not only have you yourself to blame, but you will also be held responsible for the ensuing accident. Road rallies on the other hand, were "special stages" on open public highways. A member of the public had every right to be on the road at the same time as the lunatic participants. Round here there was a lot of it went on, The police used to deliberately drive the "wrong way" in a motorway patrol car... That calmed the idiots down, along with farmers parking tractors in the road...

 

john...

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Andy™

Yes, but the HUGE difference is, someone driving a car consents to the risk they may be involved in an accident. A person driving alone the A27 most certainly DOES NOT consent to the risk that a person showing off in an aeroplane will crash onto the road.

 

 im sure the people shopping in glasgow didnt consent to a bin truck crashing into them

looking at the map of the show, it didnt seem to be in a very good spot though - sunderland air show is well built up, but all displays are over the sea. at least if someone does lose control its not as bad

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kerching

All the Air Shows around here are over the sea.

That place down the road that makes jet fighters has frequent displays on for visitors...all done over the sea apart from the fricking awesome low level paases at full tilt and all tooled up

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NozSpark

Our local airshow is over the sea and for the duration ALL watercraft are barred from entering the area

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Sharpend

I can vouch for our show being over the sea although there is one locally that isn't?

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apprentice87

Glad you ok....

 

john..

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Sidewinder

Glad that you and yours are OK too.

 

I was honestly worried that you had not logged on since yesterday morning!

 

Which, is not like you!

 

Awfully glad that you and yours are OK, I knew it was close to you.

 

Just such as sad situation for all concerned.

 

I think that we need to remember that these are the same as the pioneers of the past, without the likes of these pilots and the designers and builders of such planes we would not be where we are today.

Sad, yes, terrible, yes, unfortunate, yes.

Should it be banned, IMHO, NO.

 

What next, ban conkers in school, ban cars, ban lorries, ban trains, they all can kill.

 

I know, ban electricity, that is lethal and it is waiting to kill anyone in their own home.

 

Look, we as a country need to support and promote, innovation, experimentation and entrepreneurship.

 

If we don't we are goosed.

 

The country is wrapping it's younger generations up in cotton wool, they have no concept of risk, nor hazard.

 

The culture is becoming totally risk averse, this is WRONG.

 

There is NOTHING wrong with calculated risk, and manageable hazards.

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Blue Duck

Conker's are banned in schools! ;)

The litigious nature and dumbing down of our culture are sending us backward s as a nation.

I blame Margaret Thatcher! Vote UKIP!

My Dad's not far from there only there 24hrs previously.

:(

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If someone was driving along in a car performing 'tricks' and this then resulted in a crash and fatalities, the driver responsible would no doubt be convicted of causing death by dangerous driving.

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Andy™

correct, and so it should be. but if you go to a car show where they are doing stunts and the driver looses control and crashes then thats not 'death by dangerous driving'. same goes for the pilot - he wasnt just randomly passing and showing off: it was an organised event in which something went wrong...

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I completely agree with Sidewinder.

What is forgotten when everyone goes all emotional after tragic events like this is that, despite what has just happened, airshows are still one of the safest spectator events!

 

a dozen members of the public killed is tragic but that is it. A Dozen people in 50 years. And don't forget many millions of people have been to airshows in that time. I think you will find it pretty hard to find anything with better safety statistics, even after this incident.

 

Sure, this incident needs to be looked at very carefully to see what lessons can be learnt but knee jerk "ban them all" reactions is just not sensible or reasonable.

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Zeespark

Apparently the pilot was being a prat with some of His moves and was also flying at less than 100ft above ground, a complete no no in aviation according to some.

 

Andy Guinness

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Sorry, should have made it clear. My comments on safety relate to innocent members of the public killed. plus I was talking about the UK.

And I stand by them.

 

Yes plenty more pilots have been killed but they are not bystanders. They know what they are doing and what the risks are. 

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Apparently the pilot was being a prat with some of His moves and was also flying at less than 100ft above ground, a complete no no in aviation according to some.

 

Andy Guinness

 

I am curious about that, do you have a source for that info?

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apprentice87

So far as i know it is illegal to fly below 200 feet... To go lower you need special permission from whoever governs these things. I can tell you for a fact that ALL flights have to be logged and planned, you cannot just take off and fly about where you like....

 

"If an aircraft is flying in circumstances such that more than one of the low flying prohibitions apply, it shall fly at the greatest height required by any of the applicable prohibitions. The prohibitions are as follows:

(a) Failure of power unit
An aircraft shall not be flown below such height as would enable it to make an emergency landing without causing danger to persons or property on the surface in the event of a power unit failure.

(b) The 500 feet rule
Except with the written permission of the CAA, an aircraft shall not be flown closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle or structure.

© The 1,000 feet rule
Except with the written permission of the CAA, an aircraft flying over a congested area of a city town or settlement shall not fly below a height of 1,000 feet above the highest fixed obstacle within a horizontal radius of 600 metres of the aircraft.

(d) The land clear rule
An aircraft flying over a congested area of a city, town or settlement shall not fly below such height as would permit the aircraft to land clear of the congested area in the event of a power unit failure.

(e) Flying over open air assemblies
Except with the written permission of the CAA, an aircraft shall not fly over an organised open-air assembly of more than 1,000 persons below the higher of the following heights—
(i) 1,000 feet; or
(ii) such height as would permit the aircraft to land clear of the assembly in the event of a power unit failure.

 

john....

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kerching

Apparently the pilot was being a prat with some of His moves and was also flying at less than 100ft above ground, a complete no no in aviation according to some.

 

Andy Guinness

Strong words indeed....and little comfort to the deceased's families and the family of the Pilot.

I will reserve comment and judgement until the enquiry is completed

Just being real

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Jono Pashley

From some news reports coming out the Red Arrows had previously refused to perform from that venue due to concerns over where to put a plane down if something went wrong.

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Of course flights have to planned and they should stick to those plans. Airshow displays doubly so as there are strict rules as to what they can and cannot do, and strict rules as to who can fly and what they can fly. The guy flying the hunter was experenced, and according to those that actually knew him, the last person to do something he wasn't approved to do.

 

The trouble with events like this is that everyone wants an instant answer. They won't get one (it will take months for the AAIB to piece together the real facts) so they like making them up. Witness the lovely article in the Daily Mail quoting an "expert" and "former raf aerobatics instructor" who obvious already knows all the facts because the pilot "has got long hair and wears a cap like that, you get the feeling that he's a glamour puss rather than a professional pilot" and "He broke the rules as far as I'm concerned, flying over anywhere there were people" and "was wrong to be flying below 500ft, had too much fuel on board and 'should have been nowhere near' the A27"

 
Long hair doesn't makes someone a suicidal show off, there is no evidence yet that he deviated from his approved flight plan (the mail even have another pilot say the manouver "looked exactly the way it should be done") and many aircraft went somewhere near the A27 that day, is you would expect because it is basically off the end the runaway. All approved by the powers that be.
 
Obviously something went wrong, but how about we find out what that was before damning the pilot as a mass murderer or saying airshows are the spawn of the devil?
 
Or is that being too boring and sensible?
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NozSpark

Well..... I've just been standing in the back garden watching the Vulcan display....WOW what an aircraft!

 

It's a shame its it's last year of doing airshows.

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Sidewinder

I came on to let you know it was showing tomorrow, it seems I got it wrong!

It was today, it might be tomorrow too, perhaps.

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