Doctors strike

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Apache said:
The BMA have too much power and need putting in their place. There was no option other than to impose these contracts.

If you get an NHS bursary for your training then there ought to be a payback clause if you leave having not worked a set number of hours. Yes we attract doctors from all over the world because we have one of the best health services in the world. So doctors trained in other countries are fair game because we happen to have a "better" NHS than they do ?I am very supportive of the NHS and the staff. I am also mindful as a taxpayer that we need to get good value for our taxes - So your tax's are more important than a polish guy's tax who pays for his countryman to go through medical training ?   Sounds fair lol. paying anyone a huge premium on their salary who does a job they knew required 24 hour working is stupid. What huge premium ? They all entered the profession and willingly entered into a contract that is now being changed without their permission.

Without any debate:

  • Hospitals need to run 24 hours per day with ALL services that may be needed in an emergency They all ready do.
  • More people die on weekends due to lower staffing (of all grades and types) Many reasons for this - Drunks for one, people leaving it too late is a second. People dying that were admitted midweek are also in these figures - The government already agree that the weekend factor has absolutely NOTHING to do with junior doctors.
  • Buy using the facilities more wisely you can get more patients through the system with the same number of staff -  Irrelevant to emergency care which is already there - Do I want my ingrown toenail dealt with at the weekend ? Nope I would rather have the doctor work 50 hours and be fresh and ready to do my op 9-9 during the week.
It is stupid that a Saturday or Sunday daytime is not normal working hours. It is time to get rid of the stupid Sunday trading hours. I don't care whether you all like it, but society runs 24 hours per day. Well there is a majority that DO care about society and their health and well being that includes working hours and the remuneration there of.Actually having some time off work in the daytime on weekdays is amazing for productivity.

It's about working smarter, not harder. The solution isn't just the junior doctors - it does involve the whole NHS. This is just the start. What the health service really needs is starting again with a blank bit of paper. The government realises that throwing more money at it, is not just the solution.
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I know it's apples and oranges but how can we impose a contract on these cream of our society - and they are that - the cream or the crop - these guys are much more benefit for US as a society than most other professions many of whom get paid more - our MP's being a prime example, Continually getting huge pay awards well above what doctors earn...don't tell me mp's are exceptional or whatever because they quite simply are not. They are voted in by people they convince with whatever comes out of their mouth. A good confidence trickster could easily do almost any politicians job and to be honest most of us wouldn't notice any different - But a untrained man or confidence trickster could not do the job of a junior doctor effectively.....hence the doc has to be worth more.

Society is 24 hours.....there are enough people out there for these 24 hours to be shared evenly and YES those who opt to work the nights and weekends should be remunerated extra against those who want to work 9-5.

You seem quite happy to roll back what we used to call progress - IE society having family time, community time, holiday time. ect ect ect.....But as long as you can get a loaf of bread at 3am then that's ok.....talk about selfish 1st world problems.

This is what Hunt wanted anyway - Watch the young docs move over to agencies or even set up limited companies and start charging per day.....and the NHS will either have to pay it (They will short term) and then the NHS will declare itself bust with the only hope of savior being an insurance based system very similar to our American cousins.....you know the one that they are trying to claw back control of over there...yet we are heading down the route they went 50 years ago.

Yep I believe this is a 10 year end game as far as some vested interests are concerned. They must be rubbing their hands in glee at the opportunities coming their way - using the old NHS's equipment of course. Nice big bonuses for insurance giants too.....Buy some shares in some American healthcare providers as they seem to be 1st in the queue anyway.

 
My point about the bursary issue is they get money over and above people doing a similar course (eg vets!). I'm not attacking the government funding that the universities get, but the additional money that comes out of the NHS pot and goes to the doctors in training.

When I went to university it was harder to become a vet than a doctor. Take it from someone on the inside - they are not really the cream - they are simply doing their job. They don't deserve to be put on a pedestal and expect the government to roll over and give in to their demands. They work for us. They continue to sign new contracts throughout their training, it is common for terms and conditions to change as time goes on.

The NHS needs far more than A&E to deal properly with emergencies. That doesn't mean that you need your ingrowing toenail dealing with at 3am (that would rightly wait), but if your big toes needs re-attaching then you can't wait until Monday. There is really no debate that there is lack of senior support in hospitals OOH - that needs to change. I'm not saying that this is the sole route to the problem (neither is the government) but the first step.

Maybe there does need to be some charging in the NHS. Missed appointment. Misuse of services (calling an ambulance unnecessarily, going to A&E when you should have made a GP appointment) etc.

I don't think that trainee doctors can work privately as they are still 'in training'. That was my understanding. I would also stick a ban on public servants striking etc.

 
Junior doctors can be well established and experienced staff, not just straight out of school.

The right of any worker to remove their labour is basic human right. Same as you wouldn't work for a lettuced customer - sure you have had a few. I've just told a medium size builder to stuff a £20k solar contract, Why? Because they want 60 days to pay - why should I bankrole a much larger business, especially as the materials are around £12k and I would have to pay for them before I get paid.

 
Apache,

I understand that "human" vets are not as qualified as a real vet.

I also understand that a medical doctorate is << than a PhD.

TBH, I have done as much if not more study to the same level as a human medical doctor, in my field.

However, this is much more than this.

The doctor thing is the tip of the iceberg.

I HATE the normalisation of 24/365 working without suitable recompense.

Which is rare these days.

I don't want to & I won't work out of hours without additional charges, unless I want to.

If the customer wants me to, then they pay, or they can fine AN Other.

Who, trust me, will charge them enhanced rates, and based on a higher base rate than I do.

 
As pointed out a junior doc can be 45 years old. Every doctor is a junior until they reach consultant. As for vets, I know 2 and agree they are also the "cream". They still as far as im aware have to spend longer doing their course/study/degrees ect than most other professions. Think my mates brother (Both are mad clever btw) - Anyway he did 7 years after Cambridge to qualify....my mate done 3 years as a law graduate again after cambridge....he is now living in the Cayman islands and counts pfizer's ect as his personal clients lol...he earns silly money....but he did work bloody hard from about 12 years old to get there.

Again I agree that there are many professions that require people of at least the same caliber as a doctor...not many have the weight of peoples life/death on their shoulders each day.

 
You know,

I never thought if say this on here,

But, I think vets are more cleverer than doctors, a person can tell the doc what's wrong, a dog barks, a cow moos, a horse whinneys (or something) a gerbil chirps, (whatever)

A vet has to work it out, 

A doctor gets told the basics,

Another thing,

I quite like graveyards and unsocial hours,

But,

And it's a bit but,

Part of that is the money is better for the same thing, if it's not, then I don't go near it, 

And, by better, I mean double, 

Dunno if that helps any, or not,,,,,

 
amazing how may proffesions could kill, from flipping burgers to being an electrician.

I have worked in a couple private hospitals (as an electrician) and from what i have seen i would prefer to go NHS who are better regulated. The private hospitals are there to make money.

There was a thing before about GP practis being owned by pravite companys rather then the GPs being partners. Squeezing more money from those that actually work to produce goods and services, to line the pockets of the elite.

Perhaps they should stop spending money on bombs and killing people and spend more on preserving life.

 
Once again this money thing is the cause of all issues. I wonder how well we would all work or whether we'd bother if there was no such thing as money? Would a doctor save a life if he/she wasn't paid? Would a vet save an animal if he/she wasn't paid? Would a politician open their mouth if they didn't get a fat cheque for doing so? 

So how about we abolish money all together and work together for the sake of each other then see where and how cohesive society becomes? 

Money is is the only thing that ISN'T REAL that controls everything that we as a human do? 

 
how many re-wires would you barter for a heart operation?

Money is a very useful tool for the exchange of goods and services, what is lacking is the moral compass that says being a selfish bastard isn't good. 'The god of mammon'

 
binky said:
how many re-wires would you barter for a heart operation?

Money is a very useful tool for the exchange of goods and services, what is lacking is the moral compass that says being a selfish bastard isn't good. 'The god of mammon'
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But there's the problem with modern mentality. Why should there be a monetary value? There is a value , but why should it be necessary to do x number of rewires per operation? I'd say the general need for rewires is probably greater than the need for heart operations wouldn't you? 

 

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