downlight PIR code

[steptoe]

have a job on tomorrow where Im doing a PIR on a small council bungalow,

had a quick look today and about 50 (!) LV downlights fitted,

various reasons for coding these, inc no IP rating in bathroom,

my one query is none of them are fire rated,

is this a code (or building reg?), or simply a comment.?

a fairly elderly lady who says a friend of her sons done them about 7yrs ago,

she thinks he was a council spark, and, TBH going by the actual wiring I could believe that part,

most of it seems pretty good and proper, 4T J-Bs used in loft etc, so nothing too serious on that front.

its the fire rating Im having the issue with.

obviously with it being a rented property she will be liable to put right, so I dont want to be hammering her pension un-necessarily.

she knows the bathroom will need sorting and is happy with that,(I have told her I will do that before the PIR).

any ideas about the fire rating folks.?

thanks.

 

[steptoe]

have a job on tomorrow where Im doing a PIR on a small council bungalow,

had a quick look today and about 50 (!) LV downlights fitted,

various reasons for coding these, inc no IP rating in bathroom,

my one query is none of them are fire rated,

is this a code (or building reg?), or simply a comment.?

a fairly elderly lady who says a friend of her sons done them about 7yrs ago,

she thinks he was a council spark, and, TBH going by the actual wiring I could believe that part,

most of it seems pretty good and proper, 4T J-Bs used in loft etc, so nothing too serious on that front.

its the fire rating Im having the issue with.

obviously with it being a rented property she will be liable to put right, so I dont want to be hammering her pension un-necessarily.

she knows the bathroom will need sorting and is happy with that,(I have told her I will do that before the PIR).

any ideas about the fire rating folks.?

thanks.

 

[Riggy]

My understanding is that as it's a bungalow, the ceiling is not a fire barrier, therefore there is no requirement for the fittings to be fire rated.

 

[Adrian]

If they are in a fire rated ceiling then yes they need fire rating but I would say that in a normal bunglow no need

and as for ip rating in the bathroom only the ones in zone 1 and 2 but I normally do them all so they look the same

 

[PC Electrics]

No need for these to be "fire rated" (note to all: this does not mean "fire proof") as they are fitted within a single dwelling of 1 or 2 storeys.

On a 3 storey house the fire prevention requirements are tougher (note the self closers on doors for example) and so fire rated may be required.

A standard ceiling is 30 mins rated. Fire rated downlights are usually required if the ceiling is a 60 or 90 min affair.

 

[steptoe]

thanks all,

as an extra, and on reading this I may have failed to point out something important,

the loft has been overboarded,

does this make a difference.?

it is not completely boarded, only the central part for storage,

its W trusses, the eaves are still clear.

thanks again for the extra confirmation.

 

[NozSpark]

I thought that wiring in lofts, walls and in ceiling/floor voids was exempt from inspection

so either you didn't see it, or you'll have to code it - I'd say not installed IAW MI's (2 as they usually require 150mm clearance), although if the boards are raised and the insulation removed around the back of the fitting then they're possibly OK!

 

[PC Electrics]

Your main concern here is not whether the lights are fire rated, but are they correctly installed? Of particular concern is the question of the lights having sufficient ventilation available. Usually we would check the installation against the particulars of the manufacturers instructions. However these won't be available, so we should thus refer to general installation advice.

So,

min 2 inches (50mm) clearance to combustible materials (like ceiling joists for example)

min 4 inches (100mm) clearance above (bet you've got 3 inch joists!!)

not covered by insulation blanket.

If enclosed to the rear then an air space min 0.5 cuft to allow heat dissipation.

Heat forward lamps fitted.

Also, there should be no evidence of overheating or burning (to lamps, wiring and surrounding materials).

 

[steptoe]

Your main concern here is not whether the lights are fire rated, but are they correctly installed? Of particular concern is the question of the lights having sufficient ventilation available. Usually we would check the installation against the particulars of the manufacturers instructions. However these won't be available, so we should thus refer to general installation advice.So,

min 2 inches (50mm) clearance to combustible materials (like ceiling joists for example)

min 4 inches (100mm) clearance above (bet you've got 3 inch joists!!)

not covered by insulation blanket.

If enclosed to the rear then an air space min 0.5 cuft to allow heat dissipation.

Heat forward lamps fitted.

Also, there should be no evidence of overheating or burning (to lamps, wiring and surrounding materials).

thanks PC,

as I said, its a pensioner and I dont want to be hitting her with a stupid bill from the council if its a simple job of getting her to have the boards lifted, insulation cleared etc then that will be fine,

I just dont want to be sending the council a PIR with codes that can be easily rectified at minimal cost to the tenant without the council sending in the hit squad and doing a massively overpriced remedial job on her.

if we all agree the fire rating is not an issue then I can advise client on other issues surrounding (no pun) the lights that need attending before I sign off PIR then I can do my test happy that Im not condemning lights that dont need condemned.

insulation space etc looks OK,

will need to check joists tho, you are possible correct in 3", never thought of that.

would air holes do? or would a 4" hole be only alternative?

 

[PC Electrics]

If the joists are only 3 inch and the lights are boxed in by 'flooring' I would be tempted to put a 40-50mm hole in the chipboard directly above each light. This should be large enough to allow heat to escape but small enough that no-one will tread through it (if you get my drift).

There's a lot of concern right across the industry about downlights and fire, and rightly so. Fire is such an evil and destructive beast - it only takes two lung fulls of smoke in your sleep and you're a gonner!! So 50 of these little devils in a house is increasing the chances of something going wrong massively. And I'll bet there are no smoke alarms. No room for complacency IMO.

 

[fezz]

Not sure if this helps, but have you considered LED replacement lamps? I know it's a bit of a work-around, but they run MUCH cooler than halogens. The price difference may save you on the labour of lifting boards / drilling vent holes etc. There's obviously the danger that they could be replaced with halogens in the future, but no more risk than the "Wrong" halogen being fitted: -

As previously stated, there is rightly so a lot of concern re downlighters, I've had to strongly educate my local wholesalers for supplying Dichroic lamps as Aluminium reflectors. I literally had to go back in with manufacturer data print-outs before they would believe me that the lamps they were selling with Fire Rated units were NOT aluminium - their excuse was that they'd been supplied to them as aluminium. They also stated that they had been selling the same lamps with fire-rated units for some time. They also seemed very un-concerned. I'd be doing a recall, but maybe that's just me. Interesting topic though.

Rick

 

[steptoe]

well,

have been to this job today and quite a few things have cropped up,

joists are 5" so no major issues there,

but, insulation seems to be too close for comfort around the lights that arent under the boards, so its probably even worse with the 'boarded' lights.

earth continuity is erratic, to say the least, so may as well be non existent.

some lights are tight to joists, most of the connections although in JBs have the outer sheath stripped back beyond the enclosure and are simply taped up, everything is dimmable with 2 of the dimmers running at 100% and one at almost 150% !!! ,

quite a few other anomalies too,

turns out this little old lady isnt quite what she seems,

contrary to what she has told me she has NEVER gotten permission from the housing association for the work, including an electric shower and extra sockets, all on a 15th board with NO RCD protection(work done 7 years ago alledgedly),

housing ass now want a detailed PIR done on this property and I can see this lady getting in a lot of trouble,

right now Im off the opinion of serves her right for not being truthful with me in the 1st place,

oh, and money doesnt seem much of an issue, her 09 plate merc was in the drive today, she was moaning about how the garage had brought it back from its service and didnt fill it up with petrol for her.!!!

could be a big list on this one folks, and Ive just had a half hour visual at the lights so far, saturday by the looks of it for the full mission.

 

[Bacon]

Prob got more money than sense and trying the dear old lady trick.

 

[a1]

Thanks for the thread and Update, Steps.

 

[ProDave]

well,oh, and money doesnt seem much of an issue, her 09 plate merc was in the drive today, she was moaning about how the garage had brought it back from its service and didnt fill it up with petrol for her.!!!

I'll probably get flamed for this, but what's someone who can afford an 09 Merc. doing clogging up Social housing?

Agreed you are going to have a Loooong list of remedials to do on this job, starting I would say with new CU (you need to upgrade the CU in order to make the wiring changes needed to make it safe you could argue) It should have been upgraded to a 16th board when the shower etc was fitted.

Out of interest, I assume it was the housing association that requested the PIR?

 

[steptoe]

I'll probably get flamed for this, but what's someone who can afford an 09 Merc. doing clogging up Social housing?Agreed you are going to have a Loooong list of remedials to do on this job, starting I would say with new CU (you need to upgrade the CU in order to make the wiring changes needed to make it safe you could argue) It should have been upgraded to a 16th board when the shower etc was fitted.

Out of interest, I assume it was the housing association that requested the PIR?

yes, we(the company) are doing upgrades on the houses,

with a verbal on all the extras in this property they have requested a full PIR,

as I said prev, the tenant claimed to have cleared it all , but its all coming back on her now,

lies and more lies,,,,,

why would a 15th board require upgrading to 16th just because a shower was fitted.?

anyway,

will give you all a bit more goss after tomoz.

 

[ProDave]

why would a 15th board require upgrading to 16th just because a shower was fitted.?

Because surely if 16th applied when the shower was fitted, then it would have needed an RCD. As the 15th board (probably) wouldn't have one, either a new board, or a separate mini board for the shower.

 

[batty]

Because surely if 16th applied when the shower was fitted, then it would have needed an RCD. As the 15th board (probably) wouldn't have one, either a new board, or a separate mini board for the shower.

I don't think an RCD was required for showers in the 16th edition unless you take note of manufacturers instructions.

 

[Andy™]

I don't think an RCD was required for showers in the 16th edition unless you take note of manufacturers instructions.

correct

 

[steptoe]

^+1 to both.