No CPCs in Lighting - Why?

[Ash]

What edition BS7671 was it where lighting circuits needed no CPC? I come across them so often and I want to know the thinking behind it. Why was there ever this regulation? I'm only assuming but haven't metal light fittings been around at this time?

It's like they never future-proofed their regulations and now we're stuck with homes across Britain with unearthed metal lights.

 

[Zeespark]

1966 is when this issue was last seen as a legal wiring method Ash. You are just looking at an installation that hasnt had it ripped out/rewired yet I think.

AndyGuinness

 

[Doc Hudson]

Pre 1966, along with such things as no longer allowing a water pipe to be used as a protective earth. It is not much difference to car safety in so much that we are stuck with cars with no rear seatbelt or air bags. Although some regulations are debatable as a general rule things progress toward greater safety over a period of time, but most rules and regulations are not retrospective. There was also the time when people plugged appliances into a light fitting with a little adapter. So the appliances they were using were not earthed either. There are guidance books available covering a lot of these older practice anomalies. Some, including this no CPC issue, are also in the section at the back of approved document P. If you purchase or download a copy you will find it in one of the appendix sections.

Doc H.

 

[Zeespark]

I apologise for the inaccurate date Doc - My dad was only 8 in 1966, so that shows you how old I am

AndyGuinness

 

[Doc Hudson]

1966 is when this issue was last seen as a legal wiring method Ash. You are just looking at an installation that hasnt had it ripped out/rewired yet I think.AndyGuinness

Don't forget that no wiring regulations are legal or illegal as BS7671 is a non statutory document.

Doc H.

 

[Zeespark]

Of course Doc, I do not disagree. The easiest routes to fixing this issue is either to run a separate CPC in 6491X or to rewire the circuit entirely Ash.

AndyGuinness

 

[Evans Electric]

Ash , it also comes from a time when "Keep the Costs Down" was prelevent in our industry . The non earthed domestic lighting was, I assume ,a follow on from the days of rubber singles cables. I think the 14th edition must have brought earthed lighting in.

In the days of "Cheapo" comes first on house bashing:-

1) New housing sites would probably have one spark and six apprentices on it (Cheap labour)

2) Probably one single socket in each room and a twin in the kitchen.

3) Immersion Htr switch would always be on the landing. (Save cable drop )

4) No spare ways in the C/U . Probably a 4 way Wylex ,rewirable, Plugs/Cooker/lights/Imm.Htr.

5) Youngest apprentice chopped out all the boxes, drilled the joists with an auger and made the tea.

6) There would be no power drill on site and probably no temporary electrics.

7) There would be no H&S other than a small first aid box.

8) There would be no hard hats, High viz, toetectors, insulated tools.

Ash is right when he says " No future planning was built in" In fact that was the last thing a contractor would consider.

The same was the case for commercial & industrial work . Note in all the older premises you go to , the fuseboards are crammed to bursting with two and three circuits in every fuseway.

Oh and of course...... make a point of borrowing the neutral for the landing light .

 

[shed69]

Don't forget that no wiring regulations are legal or illegal as BS7671 is a non statutory document.Doc H.

I hate this saying and frankly could probably start a thread of its own or even a poll on who agrees it's right or wrong.... They may not be legal or illegal but they can still be referred to in a court of law and used to prosecute you can they not ?? So it kinda makes them legal in their own way!!! How about a new thread Doc or had it been covered recently?? Sorry to hijack but annoys me when I read this been said quite often on here!! Go on Doc start us a new thread .....!!!

 

[NozSpark]

It's already been covered sheds, BS7671 is not a statute document and is therefore not law. There are only 2 statute documents.. EAWR and Part P

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/electrician-talk-forum/10647-scottish-judge-says-bs7671-not-viewed-means-compliance.html

 

[philbas]

I hate this saying and frankly could probably start a thread of its own or even a poll on who agrees it's right or wrong.... They may not be legal or illegal but they can still be referred to in a court of law and used to prosecute you can they not ?? So it kinda makes them legal in their own way!!! How about a new thread Doc or had it been covered recently?? Sorry to hijack but annoys me when I read this been said quite often on here!! Go on Doc start us a new thread .....!!!

See this thread

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/electrician-talk-forum/10647-scottish-judge-says-bs7671-not-viewed-means-compliance.html

It seems Noz can type faster then me

 

[shed69]

It's all Horlicks Noz, just read the thread you linked.... What a joke.... It would be interesting to know what a judge in England would think though....

Regarding part p, this pretty much is guided by regs would you agree? so could that be used against you.... I might be asking thick questions here so slap me if I am but I'm just thinking out loud....

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 23:08 ---------- Previous post was made at 23:07 ----------

The McKnight guys letter is spot on by the way.... IMO

 

[steptoe]

2 points,

no earthing, spider earthing and ring circuits all seem to have came about due to moey issues, as Deke has said,

now we have dropped away from spider earthing, (which is IMHO better), why cant we drop the mentality for ring circuits too?

16mm through the house with circuits earthed off it has to be a good earth system (?!).

gawd, this country is so stuck in the empire!!!!!!!!

shed69, the law is the law, and until the union is dissolved then anything that is passed as civil in a scottish court will have a bearing on an english court of law, and vice versa,

if BS7671 were to be made law then probably 99% of houses in this country would become illegal overnight, so its not a practical suggestion in its present incarnation.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 23:22 ---------- Previous post was made at 23:17 ----------

the one and only thing this case supports is PIRs becoming statutory, the only people at fault here are the house buyers for not having a proper PIR done prior to purchase,

back to be oft banged drum about licenced sparks only.!

 

[shed69]

Steps, you've lost me on the 1st paragraph mate.....??

2nd one , yeah I take the point, but one day I'm sure it will become legal and the 99% will have to deal with it....

 

[Doc Hudson]

I hate this saying and frankly could probably start a thread of its own or even a poll on who agrees it's right or wrong.... They may not be legal or illegal but they can still be referred to in a court of law and used to prosecute you can they not ?? So it kinda makes them legal in their own way!!! How about a new thread Doc or had it been covered recently?? Sorry to hijack but annoys me when I read this been said quite often on here!! Go on Doc start us a new thread .....!!!

You are able to start your own thread if you so wish Shed69, we do not run a restrictive permission for opening new threads. If you read the opening sections of BS7671 it clearly states that it is non statutory but can be used as evidence to claim compliance with a statute law. But as there was no statute law relating to lighting circuits wired in domestic dwelling in 1966 or earlier, then CPC or not is neither legal nor illegal. It is just simply good practice or bad practice, probably safe or possibly hazardous. Many of the statute laws that may refer to BS7671 only relate to commercial and industrial installations, not domestic. So domestic wiring itself cannot be considered legal or illegal. Some works since 2005 do have a legal obligation for compliance with building regulations. But it still leaves a lot of alterations in lounges, dinning rooms, conservatories, studies, halls, landings, bedrooms, garages, sheds, greenhouses with no legal obligations.

Doc H.

 

[NozSpark]

It might be nice to think that BS7671 might become a statute document at some time in the future, but it isn't at the moment and we all need to understand at.

Your right, Part P does indeed reference bs7671, but it only says that good working practices should be employed and that one way ensure this would be to follow BS7671.. this does not preclude any other way

 

[shed69]

It is pony though innit....its there to guide you but if you don't wanna do it then don't !!! How can we **** off rogue cowboy sparks that do cheap shoddy work when they can simply turn round and say "what you gonna do about it , regs is just a guide , I chose not to follow it"

 

[Doc Hudson]

It is pony though innit....its there to guide you but if you don't wanna do it then don't !!! How can we **** off rogue cowboy sparks that do cheap shoddy work when they can simply turn round and say "what you gonna do about it , regs is just a guide , I chose not to follow it"

Which is why there are so few prosecutions for non compliance and poor work. Whereas infringement of copyright and logos of approved contractor schemes are legal and can be prosecuted easily. This is another one of those areas where naive electricians think they have some legal authority over the homeowner to have some work improved or replaced. But unfortunately we don't. Which is one of the reasons why DIY stores can sell so much electrical accessories. Poor workmanship is still poor workmanship it does not have to be illegal to be shoddy.

Doc H.

 

[ProDave]

Regarding logos etc, I'm doing a new build where the architect has specified "wiring to be done to current NIC regulations"

If an architect can't get it right, what hope is there for the general public to understand it?