rewiring electrical panels in a 1970's property

[RickTizzy]

Hi all,

Just to be clear, I'm not looking for advice on upgrading but rather clarification of our existing setup.

We need to upgrade the electrical panels on our recently purchased property in France, but before we get somebody in who's native tongue is not our own I was hoping to gain a better understanding of what it is we currently have at the moment. Thanks in advance to all the helpers here willing to spend their time on us.

According to the reports we had made when we purchased the house, we need to add residual current circuit breakers to replace the old earth breakers.

I'm obviously no professional but I do have quite a few years experience with general electrics and renovating and have done quite some research on my own over the years so I do believe I have a general though perhaps still superficial understanding of the concepts. I am aware of the difference between the two and the purpose behind the upgrade though. But perhaps someone here can help properly clarify our current setup (without country code specifics because we're in France) before we get the professionals in.

I've included some pictures of the current panels and will describe them as I currently think to understand them. Please correct me if I'm wrong or query me if I need to complete anything. As follows:
- We have a main incoming switch panel (A) connected to a meter (B) connected to the main breaker panel box safeguarding the house (C), which connects to an old fuse panel for our electrical heating [Chauffage] units (D).
- The breaker box panel (C) splits off to the old fuse panel (D) in a seemingly 3 phase star configuration judging by the 40A breakers.
- The C panel also apparently supplies a 3 phase delta config (again judging by the breakers) 16A circuit for a pump [Pompier] of some sort (E).
- C has a general earth circuit breaker but that excludes the 32A breaker for the oven [Cuisiniere] for some reason.
- C also covers the hot water boiler [Chaufeau] which runs on a separate 25A high and 2A low tarif circuit.
- C includes single pole breakers for 3 lighting circuits [Lampe] and 6 wall sockets [Prise]

D has apparently not been upgraded since the 70's (except for the relatively minor addition of a air circulator unit) and handles the circuits for the 7 electrical heaters.

This panel D is rather unclear to me because what I'm seeing is split fuses (which I think I understand) but with red and blue wires apparently not needed for all circuits. Do these fuses relate to the incoming 3 phases + neutral I also wonder, and how then and are the 3 (red line) fuses in the centre of the box the fuses for subcircuits?

Anyways, I hope I'm not blowing anybody's mind with these old designs. Merry christmas and best wishes to all!

 

[Andy™]

you be best asking on a forum based in the country you are wanting the work done, not a forum that's based on the language you know

 

[Murdoch]

The French regs are quite different to those in the UK. Best you find a local French spark who speaks English

 

[RickTizzy]

Hi guys, thanks for the input. So if I understand you correctly, the circuitry here is too different or difficult to explain? Like I said, I wasnt looking for code on new, I am looking for clarity on existing though so any input is welcome.

 

[binky]

Hi guys, thanks for the input. So if I understand you correctly, the circuitry here is too different or difficult to explain? Like I said, I wasnt looking for code on new, I am looking for clarity on existing though so any input is welcome.

about the only thing we can really tell you is that they RCD everything, and don't use earths in cables. Some of that gear looks positively ancient / a mess.

 

[RickTizzy]

Very true, all of the power outlets have no earth. The high power equipment like the 3 phase heaters, the oven and the 3 phase pump all do though and I'm actually pulling those earths through to the wallsockets as we replace those throughout the house. All the wall switches are individually fused in their ancient wall socket too and I'm replacing all switches as well.

It is quite a confusing mess as you say, especially in the ancient fuse box used for the heating. I'd really like to understand how they are using the 3 phase star config to power the heaters as each one is powered through it's own ancient thermostat using just one wire from the 3phase fuse box but there are 7 electrical heaters throught the house. If I'm not mistaken, each phase in the star config only carries about 90V so I'm rather confused as to what's going on.

I'm not looking forward to opening up the wooden box where the old fuse box is contained but I think it's a necessity if no one has any good idea's. If I do, I'll post the foto's here before taking further action. perhaps that will make it easier to understand.

 

[binky]

If you search the forum, you may still be able to find an English translation of French regs on here, posted many years ago.

I'm not sure I would start introducing earth's for the sockets, stick to how the locals install electrics.

 

[mort2376]

Looking at that old wooden board I would imagine that there are more than likely areas of your property that are due to be rewired.

The French wiring system is different to the UK in regard to use of colours of wiring. I remember opening a multi gang switch and finding red, orange, purple and yellow live conductors.

I would get in contact with a local electrician and have them go over the property. They must have something similar to our EICR which will give you a report on the state of the entire installation.

 

[RickTizzy]

Thanks guys. I realise it's a lot to analyse but hopefully someone can make head or tails from what I've described in combination with the foto's. It's obvious that some of the breaker panel wiring has been redone and that person apparently wasn't willing or allowed to touch the 1970's wooden fuse box, so I'd really like to understand what it is we're dealing with before getting somebody in.
All the heaters show 220v connected, so definitely not 3 phase at the end points, but the breaker supplying the wooden fuse box from the main panel says 400V in a star config (red in the picture here) if I'm not mistaken....

How could they be doing that is what I wonder.

 

[Andy™]

Thanks guys. I realise it's a lot to analyse but hopefully someone can make head or tails from what I've described in combination with the foto's.

again, france has different standards to us. no point in any of us even guessing how or what needs to be done. get someone who knows the standards of the country you are in. and if you want to live in france and avoid the language problem, learn the language of the country you want to live in.

 

[Geoff1946]

Where about in France are you? My son runs an electrical business in Chamonix and gets a lot of his business from English speaking clients.

 

[binky]

Thanks guys. I realise it's a lot to analyse but hopefully someone can make head or tails from what I've described in combination with the foto's. It's obvious that some of the breaker panel wiring has been redone and that person apparently wasn't willing or allowed to touch the 1970's wooden fuse box, so I'd really like to understand what it is we're dealing with before getting somebody in.
All the heaters show 220v connected, so definitely not 3 phase at the end points, but the breaker supplying the wooden fuse box from the main panel says 400V in a star config (red in the picture here) if I'm not mistaken....

How could they be doing that is what I wonder.

standard 3 phase switch gear. I would guess the fella avoided the trouble of the old gear, it happens in the UK too.

 

[RickTizzy]

again, france has different standards to us. no point in any of us even guessing how or what needs to be done. get someone who knows the standards of the country you are in. and if you want to live in france and avoid the language problem, learn the language of the country you want to live in.

I'm not sure why it isn't clear as I've said this a few times now: I wasnt looking for code on implementing new things, I was looking for clarity on existing. Thankfully I found a few knowledgable guys somewhere else with the time and inclination to actually read and think instead of just kneejerk like a bully.

Thanks to everyone else here for actually trying to contribute though. Much appreciated and wishing you all the best for the new year.

There never was any bullying on this forum. The OP just did not like what he was being told.
Thread now closed.