5 week wonder, urban myth?
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Take your point but, the thread was initially about 5ww.
I'd like to think JIB/Part P/whatever incompetence would be highlighted at some point. The broader point is 5ww are allowed to work in the industry pretty much untrammelled, which is wrong
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My thoughts - Mr ivixxiv ought to wind his neck in. Whether he likes it or not 'electrician' is not a protected term and anyone can call themselves an electrician. Three phase work or motors aren't any more difficult than domestic calculations it all comes down to what you are familiar with. I don't doubt for a second that any competent domestic spark could retrain (probably quite quickly) to move over into industrial work.
The laws of the physics are the same.
Just remember, ivixxiv, this is a friendly forum. I can't see anyone like your tone. People posting like yourself have come and gone before. I strongly suggest you heed my advice and wind your neck in.
The laws of the physics are the same.
Just remember, ivixxiv, this is a friendly forum. I can't see anyone like your tone. People posting like yourself have come and gone before. I strongly suggest you heed my advice and wind your neck in.
To be honest I'm well oiled sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
5ww yes there are bad (in fact shockingly ****e) ones out there but it has to be said there are also some who claim to be fully qualified sparks who are just as bad.
5ww again I've worked with some who are actualy on the ball.............. they might be slow doing the job but know what they are doing.
unfortunately where most of them fall down is WHY they are doing something in a particular manner or interpreting WHAT the test results mean, but the biggest down fall is a two hour lesson on 3 phase doesnt mean you can do industrial/commercial.
Funny enough I said to my old man today " spent 5 years at college but the best working knowledge i have learnt of the trade is what I have picked up from old time served sparks, that might be face to face or from asking questions of some esteemed members on the forum" (again most on the forum are time served but some are same as me late comers to the trade, we can all learn from each other).
Bottom line if you are taking payment from customer you should know your own limits, & be man/woman enough to say when its beyond your capabilities.
Pictures as promised (most have been posted before)
(this is by a fast track sparks who was placed by an agency, he'd not used galve tube before, ...... how do I know I asked him as he was leaving site after getting booted off).
wet room lighting/rewire
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j293/gazjothomas/dodgy%20works/Copyofoffsetlightaccessiblelivep-1.jpg
yes that is an open besa in a wet room, he couldnt get the pir to fit on the box.
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j293/gazjothomas/dodgy%20works/Copyofshortedliveconductor.jpg
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j293/gazjothomas/dodgy%20works/CopyofNogland.jpg
out of focus but it is the same box as before with the cover off you get the idea, no bushes infact a total lack of anything above the new cable runs.
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j293/gazjothomas/dodgy%20works/Copy2ofaccessibleliveparts.jpg
it wasnt plastered over because it protruded by half inch from the ceiling surface in a wet room & was left as seen as the completed article & was certificated as such.
And here we have the local handyman I've done a 5 day sparks course & registered with a scheme other than niceic..........fair play it was his own house.
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j293/gazjothomas/dodgy%20works/DSC00293.jpg
just to eaven things up a little (yes the picture is up the right way)
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j293/gazjothomas/dodgy%20works/DSC00233.jpg
Completed by a time served sparks (I know him & this is in Ascot).
Oh no back to the 5ww builders
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j293/gazjothomas/dodgy%20works/DSC00355.jpg
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j293/gazjothomas/dodgy%20works/DSC00356.jpg
Picked up on a test inspection for council post building work by builder at local property.
Industrial by approved sparks supplied by a large maintenance company.
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j293/gazjothomas/dodgy%20works/DSC00428.jpg
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j293/gazjothomas/dodgy%20works/DSC00429.jpg
Does the job but why not do it properly from the word go?
I suppose you get good & bad what ever side of the fence you are from !
5ww yes there are bad (in fact shockingly ****e) ones out there but it has to be said there are also some who claim to be fully qualified sparks who are just as bad.
5ww again I've worked with some who are actualy on the ball.............. they might be slow doing the job but know what they are doing.
unfortunately where most of them fall down is WHY they are doing something in a particular manner or interpreting WHAT the test results mean, but the biggest down fall is a two hour lesson on 3 phase doesnt mean you can do industrial/commercial.
Funny enough I said to my old man today " spent 5 years at college but the best working knowledge i have learnt of the trade is what I have picked up from old time served sparks, that might be face to face or from asking questions of some esteemed members on the forum" (again most on the forum are time served but some are same as me late comers to the trade, we can all learn from each other).
Bottom line if you are taking payment from customer you should know your own limits, & be man/woman enough to say when its beyond your capabilities.
Pictures as promised (most have been posted before)
(this is by a fast track sparks who was placed by an agency, he'd not used galve tube before, ...... how do I know I asked him as he was leaving site after getting booted off).
wet room lighting/rewire
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j293/gazjothomas/dodgy%20works/Copyofoffsetlightaccessiblelivep-1.jpg
yes that is an open besa in a wet room, he couldnt get the pir to fit on the box.
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j293/gazjothomas/dodgy%20works/Copyofshortedliveconductor.jpg
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j293/gazjothomas/dodgy%20works/CopyofNogland.jpg
out of focus but it is the same box as before with the cover off you get the idea, no bushes infact a total lack of anything above the new cable runs.
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j293/gazjothomas/dodgy%20works/Copy2ofaccessibleliveparts.jpg
it wasnt plastered over because it protruded by half inch from the ceiling surface in a wet room & was left as seen as the completed article & was certificated as such.
And here we have the local handyman I've done a 5 day sparks course & registered with a scheme other than niceic..........fair play it was his own house.
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j293/gazjothomas/dodgy%20works/DSC00293.jpg
just to eaven things up a little (yes the picture is up the right way)
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j293/gazjothomas/dodgy%20works/DSC00233.jpg
Completed by a time served sparks (I know him & this is in Ascot).
Oh no back to the 5ww builders
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j293/gazjothomas/dodgy%20works/DSC00355.jpg
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j293/gazjothomas/dodgy%20works/DSC00356.jpg
Picked up on a test inspection for council post building work by builder at local property.
Industrial by approved sparks supplied by a large maintenance company.
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j293/gazjothomas/dodgy%20works/DSC00428.jpg
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j293/gazjothomas/dodgy%20works/DSC00429.jpg
Does the job but why not do it properly from the word go?
I suppose you get good & bad what ever side of the fence you are from !
Manator
©Honorary Essex Boy™
A very balanced group of pictures showing faults from both sides. Well done.
Guy
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I definately have a much clearer view of that topic. Thanks for the photos, stories, opinions shared. :Salute
oh.......... p.s I am a 5www who is available for work so if you guys would send me your business card, c.v and preferably 2 references it would help me choose which lucky individual will benefit from my expertise. :run
oh.......... p.s I am a 5www who is available for work so if you guys would send me your business card, c.v and preferably 2 references it would help me choose which lucky individual will benefit from my expertise. :run
:slap does that stand for quality c
n s :slap 
sellers
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The main problem with 5ww is that you have all the quals after 5 weeks, and then its all upto you weather you start working on your own jobs or gain more experience.
Unlike the apprenticeship way, where you are forced to do 4 years and then qualify.
I think the expensive cost of doing a short course makes the guys try to recoup it too quickly, rushing into an industry with only 5 weeks sat at a desk. Maybe the system would be better with a 2 year experience based portfolio to go with the qualifications.
Unlike the apprenticeship way, where you are forced to do 4 years and then qualify.
I think the expensive cost of doing a short course makes the guys try to recoup it too quickly, rushing into an industry with only 5 weeks sat at a desk. Maybe the system would be better with a 2 year experience based portfolio to go with the qualifications.
Theorysparky
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Just for your info mate
i worked on a prison a couple of years back
4 weeks later they finally realised i was only a mate (with a cscs labour card)
that was after i had done 6 rooms of lighting in steel conduit,,,,basket work,tray work and then running the singles in
previous to that was in a school and to be fair to the Baileys head sparky he did laugh at the part p thing and i followed a sparky for a month
then he realised i had more skills than his apprentices
towards the end of the job i was getting the snagging lists
..........
what makes an electrician?
I know many electricians Di and AC yet they cant design and struggle to test in certain enviroments, yet they have all the qualifications and cards to boot. The problem is how do we grade all these people with differing levels of competence in the many areas of the electrical industry. It would be good if people recognized their level and worked to it, unfortunately that's not always the case especially when moneys becomes an issue, and we are also faced with the cowboys who don't care full stop.
Part P is under revision, councils are stretched by the system, so all those electricians complaining about the Part P and how its let less competent people into the industry, the removal of it could open the flood gates?
How do you feel a charted engineer may fair if he feels like turning his hand at being an electrician? He maybe a little slow practically?
Personally id like to see the scheme providers grade, this way you will have to demonstrate that you can Design, Install and Test in the various areas of industry, so Domestic, Commercial and Industrial for example. This way clients can see your current level of competence.
The final issue is keeping the cowboys out to make it all worth while, in my opinion the Government/HSE need to push for all building services to be carried out by competent people within a scheme and all works to be certified/documented and required for some sort of maintenance document.
So if some one does a 5 day course and is only competent at say changing accessories then their card would show this, any potential client can view his current level.A document will need to be provided for the maintenance pack with the works done and the information of the electrician and his competence level.
I know many electricians Di and AC yet they cant design and struggle to test in certain enviroments, yet they have all the qualifications and cards to boot. The problem is how do we grade all these people with differing levels of competence in the many areas of the electrical industry. It would be good if people recognized their level and worked to it, unfortunately that's not always the case especially when moneys becomes an issue, and we are also faced with the cowboys who don't care full stop.
Part P is under revision, councils are stretched by the system, so all those electricians complaining about the Part P and how its let less competent people into the industry, the removal of it could open the flood gates?
How do you feel a charted engineer may fair if he feels like turning his hand at being an electrician? He maybe a little slow practically?
Personally id like to see the scheme providers grade, this way you will have to demonstrate that you can Design, Install and Test in the various areas of industry, so Domestic, Commercial and Industrial for example. This way clients can see your current level of competence.
The final issue is keeping the cowboys out to make it all worth while, in my opinion the Government/HSE need to push for all building services to be carried out by competent people within a scheme and all works to be certified/documented and required for some sort of maintenance document.
So if some one does a 5 day course and is only competent at say changing accessories then their card would show this, any potential client can view his current level.A document will need to be provided for the maintenance pack with the works done and the information of the electrician and his competence level.
Ironically I have worked in heavy industry most of my working life - including the incredibly complex world of 3 phase and motors (sarcasm added) I only ever got JIB registered when I was working on domestics in the DNO (when they had a 'contracting' arm.
Now I am back (after 12 years in the hot metal industry) and working for a JIB company requires me to resurrect my JIB card and get it renewed which I have. At no point ever in heavy industry has having a JIB card made a scrap of difference.
Interesting thread. A lot of self righteous finger pointers. A lot of looking down noses. I have every respect for 5WWs as long as they don't overstretch themselves and respect the world they are in. Its a learning curve for all wherever we are and we never stop learning! Anyone who thinks they have made it because of status or the card they are carrying has missed the point and is probably in a dangerous position. Complacency is the worst thing and that affects everyone 5WW, 4 year apprentice trained, made up sparks whatever. When we lose respect for the movement of electrons along a conductive path we soon get brought down to earth (pun intended)
Now I am back (after 12 years in the hot metal industry) and working for a JIB company requires me to resurrect my JIB card and get it renewed which I have. At no point ever in heavy industry has having a JIB card made a scrap of difference.
Interesting thread. A lot of self righteous finger pointers. A lot of looking down noses. I have every respect for 5WWs as long as they don't overstretch themselves and respect the world they are in. Its a learning curve for all wherever we are and we never stop learning! Anyone who thinks they have made it because of status or the card they are carrying has missed the point and is probably in a dangerous position. Complacency is the worst thing and that affects everyone 5WW, 4 year apprentice trained, made up sparks whatever. When we lose respect for the movement of electrons along a conductive path we soon get brought down to earth (pun intended)
C
ccfc
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Why oh why are these 5w courses still available it allows people to claim to be an electrician with next to no experiance and this combined with the requirment of only c&g 2382 to join a Pp scheme,which is where most of these people will be working advising members of the public who are relying on them to be fully competent in what they are doing. I think Pp should stay but the requirements to join must be greatly increased . Im not time served but have 2360 p1&2 & 2391 & 2381&2. When i did my 2360 about 8 yrs ago we were told that we were the last to do this course because too many people were failing it especially the science and principles and it was to be replaced by a, not my words, a much easier course to get more people into the industry??? . I have worked for a small company doing light industy and comercial and for a small family business doing domestic, and after being off work for 2 yrs through illness i have just gone self employed joined Elecsa last month . I can call my self an electrician i dont want a jib card cause i dont need one was goig to do the AM 2 but when i applied the guy asked me why as it would be a waste of time if i was only going to do domestic . Untill the requirments for Pp is improved and these 5w courses are got rid of the domestic side of the trade is going to become overun by people who are giving the public a sub standard service which could well be dangerous and could endanger people.
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fast track to blowing yourself up
C
ccfc
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Rev
It just frightens me that some , and by no means all, of the DIs out there are not working to a standard that is required . We have all seen the horrors some have left behind .
It just frightens me that some , and by no means all, of the DIs out there are not working to a standard that is required . We have all seen the horrors some have left behind .
Theorysparky
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Ok i have had enuff of all this bashing
just a little point
to all the guys on here ****ging off the 5WW who have a jib card between their ar@e cheeks think they are the dogs danglies and dont have part p
you know who i mean
the guys that dont touch domestic why ????
because its beneath them
they have all the advertising,, logo'd vans but little old lady with a faulty socket they aint interested.....
but i will do it...
just a little point
to all the guys on here ****ging off the 5WW who have a jib card between their ar@e cheeks think they are the dogs danglies and dont have part p
you know who i mean
the guys that dont touch domestic why ????
because its beneath them
they have all the advertising,, logo'd vans but little old lady with a faulty socket they aint interested.....
but i will do it...
C
ccfc
Guest
Theoryspark
Most of my work is little old ladies. But what i dont agree with is somebody with no elctrical knowledge doing a 5w course joining a scheme and going out there to change the little old ladies socket and not doing it correctly .if the requirments to join a scheme were higher then this would hopefully increase the standard.
Most of my work is little old ladies. But what i dont agree with is somebody with no elctrical knowledge doing a 5w course joining a scheme and going out there to change the little old ladies socket and not doing it correctly .if the requirments to join a scheme were higher then this would hopefully increase the standard.
CCFC, half the problem with the short courses is because when they were introduced, they were marketed wrongly in favour of financial gain.
AndyGuinness
AndyGuinness
Guy
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Lets not forget that we all like to tell the story thats starts 'then the thing went bang' or 'my son could of done a better job and he's 6'.......the story about the 5ww that was a bit nervous and checked everything 3 times because he lacked confidence, but actually did a really good job........well thats just a boring story and not worth telling.
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