Another cowboy found.

[ProDave]

Today I was doing a job for a customer who has just taken over a shop unit and getting it ready for his needs. My task was just to move a few sockets to suit the new layout. But what I found was shocking.

The shop has just had a satisfactory EICR organised by the landlord. According to the tenant, the electrician was there for 2 1/2 days to do the EICR and install one mains powered smoke alarm. Christ knows what he was doing in that time, but checking the safety of the installation was not one of them.

Things I found:

Some of the circuits are on an old MEM rewireable fuse box with the asbestos arc pads with the screw to hold the cover on missing.

Some more are on a wooden wylex with rewireable fuses.

2 more are on a newish Hager board with 2 rcbo's. In there is a 16A rcbo for a heater and a 32A rcbo for a ring final to a couple of sockets. Also into that 32A rcbo was a unknown 1mm cable, still don't know what it feeds but not only is it in the wrong rating circuit breaker for the cable size, the L just pulled out of the terminal it was not clamped properly.

One single socket with a new socket fitted had no power, no attempt aparently to find out why (it took me 5 minutes to sort that one)

And finally the immersion heater, on a small tank in the toilet room, the cover is not retained, the stud that normally holds it in place was rusted away and broken off, so the only thing holding the cover on was some parcel tape.

That was without doing a full test, just the blindingly obvious.

I am not sure which is more criminal, issuing a satisfactory EICR for something that is clearly not, or spending 2 1/2 days (and presumably charging for that time) for what he did.

Upon showing this lot to the tenant he contacted the landlord. Landlord not interested "I have a satisfactory EICR"

The guy doing the testing has stuck an NICIEC tested sticker on the CU. I take it I would be wasting my time asking the NICEIC why one of their members is so clearly incompetent.

Oh and the tenant has asked the landlord for a copy of the EICR but he has failed to produce one.

 

[Andy™]

The guy doing the testing has stuck an NICIEC tested sticker on the CU.

the sticker is simply to state it has been I&T. it does not state if it was satisfactory or not. unless you have the actual EICR that states in satisfactory then for all you know the EICR could have been done correctly and full of C1/2/3 and unsatisfactory. probably why the landlord is hiding it...

 

[Murdoch]

2 1/2 day - how big was the premises and how many circuits in total?

 

[ProDave]

Small shop, 3 rooms (shop, staff room / store room and loo) I doubt it's more than 50 square metres total single storey flat roof.

I counted about 7 circuits plus a few dead disconnected old storage heater circuits.

Yes until (if) we see the EICR we don't know for sure he said satisfactory, but that was the impression the landlord gave. Would a landlord really let a shop knowing the EICR said unsatisfactory?

 

[Andy™]

Would a landlord really let a shop knowing the EICR said unsatisfactory?

there a landlord... what do you think?

most likely once they leave, it'll be part of the lease that the electrics must be satisfactory. so they'll have to pay to do the work, and save the landlord paying themselves...

2 1/2 days is way ott for that though

 

[Andy1733]

there a landlord... what do you think?

Hey. Easy tiger

 

[BorisJ]

1. Rewirable fuses are still compliant in an existing installation.

2. 1.0mm cable not good. Why did you not trace it?
Surely a socket with no power is not dangerous.

 

[peterspurs]

1 Doesn’t know it’s compliant without testing it or test results
2 why would you trace it tell them move on

 

[Murdoch]

I know PRS landlords have to give their tenants a copy of the EICR , does this not apply in commercial situations?

 

[ProDave]

1. Rewirable fuses are still compliant in an existing installation.

2. 1.0mm cable not good. Why did you not trace it?
Surely a socket with no power is not dangerous.

I was not there to do the EICR, I was there to do some minor alterations, move one double 13A socket and convert two single 13A sockets to double.

The old MEM fise box with a missing fixing screw would have been a C2 in my book. My point being why did the other electrician that did the EICR not code it, or try and find as screw that fits to resolve the issue.

I had to find and fix the fault on the non working socket as he wanted that swapped to a double, it would be prettu stupid to fit a double and leave it still not working.

 

[Andy™]

My point being why did the other electrician that did the EICR not code it,

but you haven't seen the report to know it hasn't been coded and unsatisfactory. as is, you're jumping into the electrician being a cowboy for giving it a satisfactory report when the only proof you have its 'satisfactory' is because the landlord said so. and if it was, they wouldnt be avoiding giving you a copy of it...

 

[msec]

I know PRS landlords have to give their tenants a copy of the EICR , does this not apply in commercial situations?

Not unless the lease stipulates, but as far as I'm aware, there's no default agreement for commercial tenancies, unlike residential ones.

 

[msec]

EICR's are a complete waste of time now, and, as I predicted beforehand, the situation has got worse since they became mandatory for landlords. I honestly can't understand why any sparky bothers with them anymore.

 

[ProDave]

but you haven't seen the report to know it hasn't been coded and unsatisfactory. as is, you're jumping into the electrician being a cowboy for giving it a satisfactory report when the only proof you have its 'satisfactory' is because the landlord said so. and if it was, they wouldnt be avoiding giving you a copy of it...

Okay fair point.

So we have a cowboy, we just don't know if it is the electrician or the landlord.

 

[UNG]

the sticker is simply to state it has been I&T. it does not state if it was satisfactory or not. unless you have the actual EICR that states in satisfactory then for all you know the EICR could have been done correctly and full of C1/2/3 and unsatisfactory. probably why the landlord is hiding it...

the sticker is simply to state it has been I&T someone with NIC stickers has been there.

Probably find the cert is dodgy and not complete as well

 

[Murdoch]

EICR's are a complete waste of time now, and, as I predicted beforehand, the situation has got worse since they became mandatory for landlords. I honestly can't understand why any sparky bothers with them anymore.

i don’t mind doing the odd ones - at my prices

anyone who thinks I’m expensive , can go elsewhere .

the race to the bottom has been encouraged by the rental companies offering rock bottom prices

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

EICR's are a complete waste of time now, and, as I predicted beforehand, the situation has got worse since they became mandatory for landlords. I honestly can't understand why any sparky bothers with them anymore.

Understand your perspective and mostly agree with your comment...

BUT... if you are selective about which EICR's you choose to do...
they can be useful way to earn some extra dosh, without the hassle of purchasing & installing loads of kit first!

e.g. I have no problem doing an EICR for existing customers who know how you work and your typical daily rates..
But complete strangers wanting a satisfactory EICR for less than two hours labour can jog off down the road!!!

i don’t mind doing the odd ones - at my prices

anyone who thinks I’m expensive , can go elsewhere .

the race to the bottom has been encouraged by the rental companies offering rock bottom prices

I often get enquires from "prospective new customer landlords" asking a question along the lines of:-
"How much do you charge to issue an electrical certificate for a 2 or 3 bed semi-detached rental property?"

When I tell them...
Assuming no major issues with accessibility to consumer unit...
And it is all correctly labelled..
And you have copies of previous EIC's or EICR's...
Typically looking at a days labour..

But if no previous documentation or circuit labelling is available, then you can add on an extra half days labour minimum!!
They often do not come back to me??????

There is absolutely NO point working your butt off trying to offer a cheap solution to resolve a crap installation that has been neglected for years,
When it is your name that is going to be signed in the declaration box!!

I have NO intention to try and compete with the cheap-drive-by-periodic-inspection crews doing the rounds!

 

[Murdoch]

That reminds me

December 2019 or was it 2020 I got a call from a local large letting agency - they needed 400 EICRs done before they became mandatory

I said I wasn’t interested? Agent a bit gob smacked, asked why - I simply said that they don’t pay enough for them to be done properly

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Today I was doing a job for a customer who has just taken over a shop unit and getting it ready for his needs. My task was just to move a few sockets to suit the new layout. But what I found was shocking.

The shop has just had a satisfactory EICR organised by the landlord. According to the tenant, the electrician was there for 2 1/2 days to do the EICR and install one mains powered smoke alarm. Christ knows what he was doing in that time, but checking the safety of the installation was not one of them......

..........................Oh and the tenant has asked the landlord for a copy of the EICR but he has failed to produce one.

Small shop, 3 rooms (shop, staff room / store room and loo) I doubt it's more than 50 square metres total single storey flat roof.

I counted about 7 circuits plus a few dead disconnected old storage heater circuits.

Yes until (if) we see the EICR we don't know for sure he said satisfactory, but that was the impression the landlord gave. Would a landlord really let a shop knowing the EICR said unsatisfactory?

Not sure what rules regulations etc are like in Scotland...
BUT...

AFAIK there can be some big grey areas between Landlord / Tennant responsibilities...
e.g. Roof, Windows, Basic building structure and fabric are 100% the Landlord..

Gas / Electric / Plumbing requirements can vary per tenant...
And often the tenant can choose who is their Gas/Electric supplier...

So, in some cases, providing there is an incoming supply...
Anything else is down to the tenant..
As long as they accept responsibility to ensure the overall electrical installation is no worse from when they moved in!!

 

[msec]

i don’t mind doing the odd ones - at my prices

anyone who thinks I’m expensive , can go elsewhere .

the race to the bottom has been encouraged by the rental companies offering rock bottom prices

Yeah, but the agents are only encouraged by the sparkys who seem to be more than willing to bend over backwards for peanuts. The majority of course are using the EICR's as an 'in' for remedial work and will find it even if it's not there. Others are happy just to do them dirt cheap and basically spend an hour making up the results. I'd do them all day if the price reflected the value, but sadly even the supposed reputable firms are doing them at 50% of what I think they should be. Even the legislation that made them mandatory contains a 'recommended' price as a guide for landlords, without actually mentioning even the basic differentiating factors, such as the property, size and use of installation etc. I've never been one to compete on price, always been happy to avoid the race to the bottom, but there's only so much you can do in certain circumstances. My response has been to avoid them altogether.