Greenhouse And Shed

[NozSpark]

Correct, the IP rating of the enclosure will be immediately affected by the holes you're going to be putting into it for the mounting screws and cable entry

And matty was getting at the fact that just turning it on and it seeming to work does not mean that it is safe,, proper testing should be carried out before any electrical work is energised

 

[DIYShock]

I'm not entirely sure ANY outside socket really CAN have an IP66 rating.

It's the "water jets from ANY direction" bit that bothers me.

A 13A socket is only of any use if you can plug a 13A plug into it.  So it must have an opening lid.

I'm guessing that the supposedly IP66 one, is a type that allows you to shut the lid while a plug is plugged in.

But you still have the flex exiting a hole between the lid and the body, hopefully "sealed" by some form of soft rubber seal that closes around the cable.

Now, if you think that socket is going to be okay lying on it's back, then you are putting 100% trust in that seal actually keeping the water out for good and not letting ANY in, to run into the socket pins.

Fine when it's mounted upright, but I would say no to lying it on it's back. 

ProDave,

Yes, I understand what you're saying.  But that is what the requirement states for IP66.  I think I agree with you that the likelihood of it actually resisting me pointing a high pressure washer at the point the cable enters and expecting the plug to remain dry might be a high order, and the fact that if you use conduit rather than SWA you have to drill drainage holes seems to suggest they expect water ingress.  Maybe it is to do with the 3 minute tolerance?

Yes, IP66 plugs are ones that you shut the lid while a plug is in : www[DOT]screwfix[DOT]com/p/nexus-13a-2g-rcd-switched-socket/91095

Anyway, despite the product regulations, I think common sense dictates mounting it upright makes fewer assumptions about the actual testing on 'all directions' that they actually do!

Thanks for your thoughts.

Correct, the IP rating of the enclosure will be immediately affected by the holes you're going to be putting into it for the mounting screws and cable entry

And matty was getting at the fact that just turning it on and it seeming to work does not mean that it is safe,, proper testing should be carried out before any electrical work is energised

Thanks NozSpark.  It seems daft doesn't it to have a rating that is actually unusable (a sealed box will have an IP rating of 68 but it won't be much good for plugging my mower into ; -)

I appreciate that just because it seems to work doesn't mean it is correct and safe, but if sensible steps have been taken to connect it properly (including the fused spur suggestion) then what more is a clever box going to show?  The circuit has only been extended in the same way an extension lead extends it, and we don't plug in a trip tester everytime we buy an extension.  Thanks for the suggestion though.

Regards.

 

[ProDave]

I appreciate that just because it seems to work doesn't mean it is correct and safe, but if sensible steps have been taken to connect it properly (including the fused spur suggestion) then what more is a clever box going to show?  The circuit has only been extended in the same way an extension lead extends it, and we don't plug in a trip tester everytime we buy an extension.  Thanks for the suggestion though.

Regards.

The "clever box" will tell you the sockets are connected to the correct polarity (it will still "work" if L and N are reversed but won't be safe),

it will tell you if Zs is within limits for the protection device used so you know in the event of an overload, the protective device will trip before the cable catches fire.

It will test that the RCD is functioning correctly and trips within specified time limits so you know you can rely on it as a safety device.

It will check the insulation resistance of the wiring, a low IR might point to a damaged cable somewhere that might fail catastrophically later on.

Or you could just give it the "smoke test" and if it works, you take the risk that it might not actually be safe.

 

[NozSpark]

:shakehead

 

[DIYShock]

The "clever box" will tell you the sockets are connected to the correct polarity (it will still "work" if L and N are reversed but won't be safe),

it will tell you if Zs is within limits for the protection device used so you know in the event of an overload, the protective device will trip before the cable catches fire.

It will test that the RCD is functioning correctly and trips within specified time limits so you know you can rely on it as a safety device.

It will check the insulation resistance of the wiring, a low IR might point to a damaged cable somewhere that might fail catastrophically later on.

Or you could just give it the "smoke test" and if it works, you take the risk that it might not actually be safe.

ProDave (& NozSpark in despair!)

Thanks for your response.  I was being slightly tongue in cheek, but sadly can't post that smiley since apparently it is a link!?!?!

I understand that L and N will work regardless which way round they are, but I guess that was what I was referring to about connecting it properly.  I appreciate that Zs can't be tested, and that the RCD can only be tested using its test button - which won't therefore test my addition.  I also appreciate that it can test the insulation wiring - though I guess my thought process was that I won't have changed the current system and I know the addition will be safe from this point of view at least.

What I will do is get a Periodic Inspection Report or similar from a friendly local sparky.  Sadly North Wales and Scotland are a little too far to employ either of your services (unless you want a holiday in sunny Manchester?!)

I certainly won't be doing the smoke test - or the bang test indicated by M4tty!!

Thanks for all your help guys.

 

[Bruspark]

Being long in the tooth and having seen water coming from some of the strangest places  I suggest any installer consider what is going to happen if all the rubber seals perish and anything on or near the floor of a garage /workshop/shed etc gets trodden on or kicked and what if anything (location, screening, secondard enclosures etc) might make that situation less likely /less dangerous.     Because at some point in the life of the installation /house this will surely happen....

 

[northernspark]

Test button only confirms the mechanical side of the device, when you test an rcd properly using an rcd tester or a multifunction tester you press the test button last (functional test) if its been stood for years without operating then its likely theres oxidation on the terminals or possibly another undlying issue reducing its sensitivity meaning it wont disconnect the circuit under fault conditions in the required times

Re polarity, how do you know the polarity is connect on the exisiting circuit in the first instance so again you need to test to confirm this always better than assuming somthing, same with insulation resistance as I've seen brand new cables installed on site then tested only to show a dead short between some of the cores then upon inspection there being no visable damage to the cable itself and also there could be underlying issues on the exisiting wiring that you dont know about causing a low IR reading that would possibly be needing sorted

Never assume with electricity as it'll come back to get you

As for IP ratings if I had a pound for every IP66/68 rated socket/enclosure I've opened over the years that was full of water or showed signs of excessive water ingress then I'd be a very wealthy man, I really wouldnt take the manufacurers spec for gospel

I'd get a local spark to come check it over and do a minor works on the circuit your adding to, to confirm alls good

 

[steptoe]

ProDave (& NozSpark in despair!)

Thanks for your response.  I was being slightly tongue in cheek, but sadly can't post that smiley since apparently it is a link!?!?!

I understand that L and N will work regardless which way round they are, but I guess that was what I was referring to about connecting it properly.  I appreciate that Zs can't be tested, and that the RCD can only be tested using its test button - which won't therefore test my addition.  I also appreciate that it can test the insulation wiring - though I guess my thought process was that I won't have changed the current system and I know the addition will be safe from this point of view at least.

What I will do is get a Periodic Inspection Report or similar from a friendly local sparky.  Sadly North Wales and Scotland are a little too far to employ either of your services (unless you want a holiday in sunny Manchester?!)

I certainly won't be doing the smoke test - or the bang test indicated by M4tty!!

Thanks for all your help guys.

there are two Manchesters ??????

 

[NozSpark]

there are two Manchesters ??????

Yep,,,,

One also in New Hampshire (US)

 

[steptoe]

ah, that'll be the sunny one then,  :|

 

[NozSpark]

Lol