Hourly rate discussions following Help needed in trying to diagnose a fault Thread

[Murdoch]

. We might also do love jobs for family and close friends, but again this has to be limited.

They pay the normal rate too ....................

 

[Risteard]

They pay the normal rate too ....................

And that's fair enough. I discount for those who I know have done a lot for me/spent a lot of money on me in the past who I couldn't really repay any other way.

 

[Murdoch]

Done the odd "contra" deal in the past with my trade mates .................. but that just makes good business sense.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Again you fail to address my points ................. its not just about the time on site doing the test .......... you have to get there, prepare , test, pack up and travel again ......

Your approach doesn't help - charging more than £35 for an hour sounds a lot .............. but its NOT a rip off - its not just about the time on site, you are providing expertise, tools, etc...... and if you are SE its not what you get in your pocket............

I will continue with my minimum charge of £50 for the first hour ........................ if you think its a rip off, then you are doing nothing more than contributing to the race to the bottom

Many years ago I tried doing work for less and concluded that it simply wasn't worth it. .......................

£50 less tax and NI = £31.00

Less direct overheads of insurances etc

Less indirect overheads of talking on phone, going to site, doing invoice, sending invoice ....

Then there is the fact that if you are Self Employed, you don't get paid for every hour you work .................. nor do you get paid for sick days, bank holidays, normal holidays, pensions, etc etc

Not around here!

You're not going to be surprised to hear I disagree with you 100%

I often do the small jobs on the way home, to suit me, I don't discount my time, nor my value!

Then there are jobs where parking is an issue ........................ 

Are you actually working as a spark? Self Employed? or Employed?

Yes, I am fully aware of the costs of running your own business, being self-employed, all of the overhead costs, needing to do everything yourself, and that some hours are "unpaid hours" etc. However, it is also a fact of life that some are more efficient than others at running their business. As such they will be able to undercut the less efficient operators whilst still covering their overheads and making a sufficient profit to ensure the debt collectors are not banging at their doors. And we must remember that the commercial and domestic sectors can vary considerably in their price structure, due to some companies being VAT registered whilst others are not. Running a good business and being a good electrician are two different skill-sets that not all self-employed have a good grasp of.

Going back to the initial comment that raise this point, it was about a labour only cost to test a single underground cable to a garage and I appreciate that you may be unable to test such a cable profitably for say £35, but that doesn’t mean that others cannot do so. As you say some customers have difficult access, or parking restrictions. It is also true that many do not and while some customers are not local others can be. It is not beyond the realms of feasibility that someone can establish a good successful business with a predominantly local customer base. As such the operating overheads are much lower than others specialising in more safety critical commercial or industrial applications that are further away. 

To try and do a one size fits all price solution is a bit of a nonstarter, but this was relating to testing a three-core single phase supply to a domestic garage! (remove a couple of covers, isolate three conductors IR & continuity test. Tell customer your findings, simples!). In reality probably quicker and easier than replacing a ceiling light fitting. Now if there is a local electrician competent enough to do the work, it can easily be cost effective at less than £50. We are not talking about designing, installing, testing and certifying a new installation. Just checking the condition of one garage sub-main.

As a side thought consider just the pure labour aspect of £35 for 1 hour’s work and assume various levels of paid work per week and weeks per year of say;  24hours, 30hours or 40hours per week with either 40, 43 or 47 weeks per year.

For 24hours and 40weeks you will have turnover on your labour of £33,600.  Or for 40 hours and 47week you turnover £65,800.  Or somewhere in the middle 30hrs 43 weeks; £45,150.  And that does not include any additional earnings from your mark-up on material costs for other 'real installation jobs'. Now in some parts of the country those figures could be a bit low for your cost of living, whereas in other parts an average £45,000+ turnover, just on your labour, with 9weeks unpaid per year and only 30 paid hours per week is a comfortable, (non-charitable), figure. And of course those who are more established with a larger customer base can find it easier to get more work per week and more weeks per year if they so wish.

Doc H.

 

[ProDave]

I am with the Doc on this one.

Okay I am probably in one of the cheapest parts of the UK so my hourly rate is no doubt lower than most of you.

I don't see why I need to charge a "call out fee" I think that is the issue. My minimum is 1 hours labour. I do a lot of small jobs, the usual "fix a broken light switch" etc that may only take 10 minutes, but I get paid an hour for it. I don't have a problem with that.

Likewise this job, if it took half an hour to test the cable I would be happy with my 1 hour labour as payment.

The issue is perhaps traveling. If it is only in the local town so only a few miles I absorb that. Traffic jams are almost unheard of here so it never takes long to get to a job, so it is the cost of fuel and wear and tear.  If I do have to travel a long way, then I discuss with the customer a fair charge to cover my traveling costs to get to the job then the 1 hour minimum labour starts.

I am also fortunate that I am semi retired. The amount I need to earn is tiny so I don't work anywhere near full time, so a single 1 hour job will do me for a day, so my expectations are lower. If you have a big mortgage and need to earn a lot, then a few 1 hour jobs will be in irritation that stop you doing a more worthwhile full 8 hour day so I can perfectly understand some people not liking them and hence making a call out charge to deter them, or compensate for time not on bigger jobs.

Generally small jobs like this have little or no overheads. It's the larger jobs where you have to spend time ordering and fetching parts that have a number of "unpaid" hours. You rarely get that with small jobs.

And lastly, I have got a lot of custom from people who you first do a small job for. They remember how you helped them when perhaps others would not, and call you when a larger job comes along, or recommend you to someone looking for a more substantial chunk of work.

At the end of the day none of us are right or wrong. We operate to the business model that suits our needs and expectations.

 

[Murdoch]

Yes, I am fully aware of the costs of running your own business, being self-employed, all of the overhead costs, needing to do everything yourself, and that some hours are "unpaid hours" etc. However, it is also a fact of life that some are more efficient than others at running their business. As such they will be able to undercut the less efficient operators whilst still covering their overheads and making a sufficient profit to ensure the debt collectors are not banging at their doors. And we must remember that the commercial and domestic sectors can vary considerably in their price structure, due to some companies being VAT registered whilst others are not. Running a good business and being a good electrician are two different skill-sets that not all self-employed have a good grasp of.

Going back to the initial comment that raise this point, it was about a labour only cost to test a single underground cable to a garage and I appreciate that you may be unable to test such a cable profitably for say £35, but that doesn’t mean that others cannot do so. As you say some customers have difficult access, or parking restrictions. It is also true that many do not and while some customers are not local others can be. It is not beyond the realms of feasibility that someone can establish a good successful business with a predominantly local customer base. As such the operating overheads are much lower than others specialising in more safety critical commercial or industrial applications that are further away. 

To try and do a one size fits all price solution is a bit of a nonstarter, but this was relating to testing a three-core single phase supply to a domestic garage! (remove a couple of covers, isolate three conductors IR & continuity test. Tell customer your findings, simples!). In reality probably quicker and easier than replacing a ceiling light fitting. Now if there is a local electrician competent enough to do the work, it can easily be cost effective at less than £50. We are not talking about designing, installing, testing and certifying a new installation. Just checking the condition of one garage sub-main.

As a side thought consider just the pure labour aspect of £35 for 1 hour’s work and assume various levels of paid work per week and weeks per year of say;  24hours, 30hours or 40hours per week with either 40, 43 or 47 weeks per year.

For 24hours and 40weeks you will have turnover on your labour of £33,600.  Or for 40 hours and 47week you turnover £65,800.  Or somewhere in the middle 30hrs 43 weeks; £45,150.  And that does not include any additional earnings from your mark-up on material costs for other 'real installation jobs'. Now in some parts of the country those figures could be a bit low for your cost of living, whereas in other parts an average £45,000+ turnover, just on your labour, with 9weeks unpaid per year and only 30 paid hours per week is a comfortable, (non-charitable), figure. And of course those who are more established with a larger customer base can find it easier to get more work per week and more weeks per year if they so wish.

Doc H.

Sorry but just more senseless waffle.......  and based on 8 years of experience, the hours for "paid" work doesn't equate to your numbers .............. you are ignoring the fact that its virtually impossible to line up work as you make out, so your calculations don't make sense.

I sometimes do a "small jobs" day - well planned and if I'm really lucky I can do 5 hours paid work for 5 people ............ but that's often more hassle than its worth, when you allow for the trips to wholesalers, the invoicing etc ................

So lets agree to disagree .............. especially as you won't let on whether you are working, where you are based ............................... and in exchange please stop setting the expectation below market rates .................... sure £35 may work in some areas, but not in others................... just peruse the Pimlico rates ...................

 

[MDJ]

I think most sensible people would expect a 50 quid bill for an hours labour at least, try calling a plumber out if you have a burst pipe, you will be lucky to get away with less than 200 quid for them to stop the leak, in fact 50 quid is cheap IMO.

 

[Murdoch]

At the end of the day none of us are right or wrong. We operate to the business model that suits our needs and expectations.

The problem comes when moderators on sites like this set expectations for Joe Public which can be totally unreasonable and if I had £1 for every time I hear "I read it on a website" ................ I would be well off.

This would have been avoided it the original statement had read something like "to get this submain properly tested should take no more than 1 hour and cost between £30 and £75 depending on where in the UK you are..............."

 

[binky]

£50 is very reasonable in my opinion, people pay £4 for a ruddy poncy coffee thee days. In reality there is no such thing as a 1 hour job. If you are trying to string sevral small jobs togther in 1 day, you have to allow a bit more time, just in case 1 job runs over, so you have downtime between jobs as well.

 Now, for regular customers I'll often pop in on the way home from another job, and charge less accordingly, or have a quick look at an issue and advise customers that the job needs x y z and can be done another day ( I don't charge for just looking).  Generally speaking though, I avoid small jobs altogether - better off putting the time to quotes for bigger pieces of work.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Sorry but just more senseless waffle.......  and based on 8 years of experience, the hours for "paid" work doesn't equate to your numbers .............. you are ignoring the fact that its virtually impossible to line up work as you make out, so your calculations don't make sense.

I sometimes do a "small jobs" day - well planned and if I'm really lucky I can do 5 hours paid work for 5 people ............ but that's often more hassle than its worth, when you allow for the trips to wholesalers, the invoicing etc ................

So lets agree to disagree .............. especially as you won't let on whether you are working, where you are based ............................... and in exchange please stop setting the expectation below market rates .................... sure £35 may work in some areas, but not in others................... just peruse the Pimlico rates ...................

Maybe if you re read what I have actually said I have taken account of unpaid hours, and why on earth make an unrelated comparisons of only doing hour jobs for 5 different people?  Pimlico rates are an exception to the rule when considering the larger population of the UK. As we do not know where the OP (or yourself are for that matter) then my location is also irrelevant.  And for the record I shall repeat "I am fully aware of the costs of running your own business." and that is based on more than double your 8 years experience.

The problem comes when moderators on sites like this set expectations for Joe Public which can be totally unreasonable and if I had £1 for every time I hear "I read it on a website" ................ I would be well off.

This would have been avoided it the original statement had read something like "to get this submain properly tested should take no more than 1 hour and cost between £30 and £75 depending on where in the UK you are..............."

An awful lot of the UK is not major city centre based, and running costs for a business can be a lot lower, what may be unreasonable for one is perfectly reasonable for another.

Doc H.

 

[Doc Hudson]

I think most sensible people would expect a 50 quid bill for an hours labour at least, try calling a plumber out if you have a burst pipe, you will be lucky to get away with less than 200 quid for them to stop the leak, in fact 50 quid is cheap IMO.

Is that a relevant example though? my comment in the original post was not talking about repairing anything, just a simple IR & Continuity test on a single cable. It certainly wouldn't take me an hour. As I mentioned earlier a more similar related comparison cost could be to an MOT test on your car. In this instance very few sensible people would expect to pay £50 for less than 1hours testing with specialist calibrated equipment by trained operatives, with overheads and running costs that are possibly greater than the average electrician with his/her van. I know I wouldn't pay £50.

Just to clarify again: I have been qualified and trading since well before all the Part-P and 5WW crews started appearing, (in fact since before the turn of the Millennium for that matter), and during that time it has been blatantly obvious that not all jobs fit exactly into 'full day units'. Whist some jobs may be weeks others are days others half days or Just the quick call in, or any combination thereof. Nowhere did I suggest that a business could survive on just doing single 1 hour jobs every day to make up full days or weeks, (or not). But reality shows that a small 1 hour visit can often be easily accommodated into part-days either to or from other work.

If a task is really easy, involves no materials and takes very little time and can be accommodated by a locally based electrician, but that electrician is going to charge £50 or £60, (assuming its not in the 'Pimlico' London area), is it any wonder that DIY'ers are increasingly looking to internet solutions? No different to the recent discussions about the fate of Maplin's, you can only sell cheap tat at over the odds prices for so long, before customers walk. Some electrical tasks are more complex and higher premium in value and should be charged accordingly, But others are so basic bread and butter they are like the cheap Chinese imports that Maplin overpriced. In my opinion a bit of discretion and common sense around your charges pays dividends in the long run.

Doc H

 

[Murdoch]

An awful lot of the UK is not major city centre based, and running costs for a business can be a lot lower, what may be unreasonable for one is perfectly reasonable for another.

Doc H.

Again you have failed to answer my point - which as a moderator you DID indicate to the original thread that a test should cost a small amount - do you accept this was misleading?

And I remember crossing "swords" with you before over such matters ................................................. so a serial offender IMHO

. As we do not know where the OP (or yourself are for that matter) then my location is also irrelevant. 

But charges across the UK vary massively - which you consistently seem to want to ignore

At least Pro Dave had the decency to suggest he does agree.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Again you have failed to answer my point - which as a moderator you DID indicate to the original thread that a test should cost a small amount - do you accept this was misleading?

But charges across the UK vary massively - which you consistently seem to want to ignore

At least Pro Dave had the decency to suggest he does agree.

No I do not accept it was misleading, possibly you may consider answering my point? Is doing an IR and continuity test on one single three core cable honestly that much more complex and expensive than having your car MOT'd? Which is another service provided across the UK. I think the maximum charge at the moment for a standard car is £54.85, many test centres can reduce this cost, they have overheads, test equipment and other such requirements to meet, in a similar way to many electricians. Your comment "charges across the UK vary", I would agree with. Massively? that could be another debate, how massive is massive? How massive is the cost difference for an MOT? how long does it genuinely take to pick your screwdrivers and tester out of the toolbox, remove a couple of covers, isolate three conductors, test them, then put them all back how you found them? I am confident I could do it quicker than getting my car MOT'd. If it is taking you that long that you must charge £50+ to verify the integrity of a single cable, (no branches or accessories connected), then how much and how long are you, if or when, trying to do a full PIR on an installation with multiple circuits? 

I have no idea why you add the phrase "moderator" into your posts? It has no little or no relevance to the content of this discussion. Other than the aspect that I made the decision to split it off from the original thread, as I thought it was getting off topic from the problem of intermittent tripping. (I do hope for the good of the forum and the Original Poster that you agree with that adjustment?). Other than that every comment and post is visible in full unedited and unmoderated layout. Also not sure why the phrase "crossing swords" has much relevance?  The bottom line is that this forum is a very, very, very, small snapshot of the electrical industry. Out in the wider world there are bucket loads of competent, skilled, qualified electricians running successful businesses, (as well as the cowboy 5WW who haven't got a clue), who can undercut the costings you are suggesting that must be paid for 30mins of basic testing. 

To think that every electrician has their diary fully booked every day and that every day is a full day without a spare 'unproductive' half hour or hour, where they can't slot in a quick unscheduled visit is not a real world view. If you were going to earn nothing anyway, during the last hour of a working day, (as you have already 'got your day in'), then this sort of simple quick and easy, 'money for old rope job' can be done. In the world of retail it may be considered marginally above a 'Loss Leader'. However rather than making a loss to generate new customers, you are still earning a reasonable sum for part of a day where you would have earned nothing. But also making contact with a new customer.  (cheaper than going out to a site visit to quote or estimate on work you may not get).

(agreed Pro Dave did also say 'I am with the Doc on this one!')

Doc H. 

 

[Sidewinder]

Doc H.

Try getting the garage to come & MOT your car on your driveway, then see what the cost is.

IMHO, that is a better comparison.

 

[ProDave]

Doc H.

Try getting the garage to come & MOT your car on your driveway, then see what the cost is.

IMHO, that is a better comparison.

Okay, try getting the customer to bring his garage SWA to YOU to test it.

There is absolutely no comparison between the two.

 

[Sidewinder]

Yes there is PD.

Doc made it.

Doc compared the spark going to the customers house and you taking your car to a garage for an mot, so there is a comparison.

 

[Sharpend]

Sorry but this is all irrelevant, it’s your business and your business model, you and only you know you’re overheads so you price to do a job according to your requirements. Therefore by default each and everyone will have a different take on what’s the correct amount and what’s not acceptable. 

Reality is this, the customer will pay the person that they think is offering them value for money. 

Perhaps going forward in posts of this enquiry the best answer is to purely state what you would charge to do the job, indicating the area you are in for the purpose of balance and not offer an acceptable price ?? 

 

[ProDave]

Yes there is PD.

Doc made it.

Doc compared the spark going to the customers house and you taking your car to a garage for an mot, so there is a comparison.

BOTH are performing the normal business model for the trade concerned and what they are set up for.

The MOT requires an inspection pit or vehicle hoist and loads of test gear like brake testers, headlight aim etc. It can only be done by taking your car to the test station and is done in under an hour. Considering the very much greater capital they have invested in equipment then £54 is arguably good value.

An electrician is set up to go and work at a customers premises, it's what we do.

Suggesting the MOT tester comes to you is just as ludicrous as me suggesting the customer digs up his bit of SWA cable and brings it to you for testing.

 

[Risteard]

more complex and expensive than having your car MOT'd?

I think you're forgetting that the MoT centre does not travel to you. Nor do they load/unload tools etc. for the purposes of travelling to/from you.

In my view it's a complete red herring to compare the two things.

(Incidentally here we do not have private MoT centres attached to garages - all MoT centres are government operated instead.)

 

[MDJ]

Is that a relevant example though? my comment in the original post was not talking about repairing anything, just a simple IR & Continuity test on a single cable. It certainly wouldn't take me an hour. As I mentioned earlier a more similar related comparison cost could be to an MOT test on your car. In this instance very few sensible people would expect to pay £50 for less than 1hours testing with specialist calibrated equipment by trained operatives, with overheads and running costs that are possibly greater than the average electrician with his/her van. I know I wouldn't pay £50.

Just to clarify again: I have been qualified and trading since well before all the Part-P and 5WW crews started appearing, (in fact since before the turn of the Millennium for that matter), and during that time it has been blatantly obvious that not all jobs fit exactly into 'full day units'. Whist some jobs may be weeks others are days others half days or Just the quick call in, or any combination thereof. Nowhere did I suggest that a business could survive on just doing single 1 hour jobs every day to make up full days or weeks, (or not). But reality shows that a small 1 hour visit can often be easily accommodated into part-days either to or from other work.

If a task is really easy, involves no materials and takes very little time and can be accommodated by a locally based electrician, but that electrician is going to charge £50 or £60, (assuming its not in the 'Pimlico' London area), is it any wonder that DIY'ers are increasingly looking to internet solutions? No different to the recent discussions about the fate of Maplin's, you can only sell cheap tat at over the odds prices for so long, before customers walk. Some electrical tasks are more complex and higher premium in value and should be charged accordingly, But others are so basic bread and butter they are like the cheap Chinese imports that Maplin overpriced. In my opinion a bit of discretion and common sense around your charges pays dividends in the long run.

Doc H

Plenty of hero's have raced to the bottom, and the winners always end up losing out, de skilling the job is not the answer by charging cowboys rates, if your a professional time served Electrician and good at your job you will always get work by word of mouth, I kind of get your point, but you will never win the argument, quite simply with the greatest respect to you, cheap invoices do not pay bills in this industry.