Maximum Demand exceeded

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interesting when was this?

from speaking to DNO they have commented that it used to be as low as 4a. nothing in writing to verify that though, but when you look at how many properties are on a transformer and cable sizes etc you can easily see they don't allow massive amounts and that's probably an accurate figure in some cases. there's some estates around here wired in 4mm from the 35mm in the street
 
Just looking for guidance as outlined in my original post. If im over safe isnt it better to be than not giving a shit and ignoring a possible safety issue?
max demand is always going to be an awkard one. there's no right or wrong answer. like i said earlier you can have 2 completely different answers depending what circuits are there. you could also go one further and say the one with the new wiring has a single person in it with very little appliances and the older one has a full house with lots of kids and constantly loaded, the one you'd calc max demand to be less may be more than the other you'd expect to be more

reality is, for a normal house, even with electric cooker & shower, its not likely to blow a 40a fuse, and almost never going to blow a 60-100a (except if there is a fault, but that's a different issue). the fact that almost every property is wired and same way yet almost none of them are blowing DNO fuse would suggest that its all good. tbh. for a normal house, i wouldnt be concerned with max demand unless i see evidence of overloading

of course, if you have a large house that's all electric or multiple a showers etc then you may need to work a bit harder at it
 
Ok, Perhaps a non prat youtube channel beckons for you? I would subscribe, as I have learned much from your input on here and you clearly have bags of experience to show us all...........a forum is one thing but a You tube channel is a challenge only the brave seem to take on in the right way. Or those with plenty of time on their hands............................;)

You tube has a vast quantity of poor to mediocre content added by wannabe TV stars..
And the phrase "the blind leading the blind" can easily be applied to far to many alleged educational / teaching videos. (irrespective of how many followers they have).

The tables and guidance dates back the best part of 20+ years, to an era where the 6way Wylex BS3036 was the norm in many domestic dwellings..

It would have been better if the bod had mentioned the guidance text that accompanies those tables.. And that with modern CU's where additional circuits are added to minimise the inconvenience in the event of a single fault, the 100% largest + 40% remainder method will give totally inaccurate values.
 
John Ward, Sparkyninja and David Savery (If you can tolerate his needless swearing) are very good YouTube posters John Ward in particular is a very knowledgeable individual.
 
Just looking for guidance as outlined in my original post. If im over safe isnt it better to be than not giving a shit and ignoring a possible safety issue?

Other bits of useful guidance are:-

1/ BS7671 is guidance NOT a set of strict instructions..

2/ Do NOT underestimate your own common sense when reading the guidance..

3/ Take into consideration comments such as the current demand to be assumed for lighting circuits, where Table A1 states assume a Minimum of 100watt per lamp holder.. But when could you last purchase a 100w lamp???

4/ Also remember there is NO mention of EV charging points in the "Guidance" max demand tables.

5/ Consider a historic 15A 3036 immersion heater circuit, amended to 16A 60898 during a CU change... Yet the actual load is still max 13A, not the extra 2A or 3A because the nearest protective device happens to be a bit bigger!!

6/ Re read point 2.. do not underestimate your own common sense.

7/ Max demand can change because more people move into a property.. But not because a CU is changed!

8/ Estimated calculations are just a rough ball park figure that can be significantly incorrect.

9/ Without leaving a monitor connected to the supply over a significant period of time it is almost impossible to accurately guess the actual max demand!

10/ Stop and think realistically how much power needs to be consumed to draw the max demand current you have calculated...? And does the property have sufficient appliances to consume this amount of power?

Remember;
Max-demand is an area where you have got to put on your "I am the electrically experienced expert in relation to this installation" and "I will consider which guidance to apply" and "Which guidance is not applicable".. There are no pre-written calculations that automatically apply to your specific individual unique installation characteristics!
 
Remember;
Max-demand is an area where you have got to put on your "I am the electrically experienced expert in relation to this installation" and "I will consider which guidance to apply" and "Which guidance is not applicable".. There are no pre-written calculations that automatically apply to your specific individual unique installation characteristics!

I always liked phase uttered by the chairman of the association of structural engineers many years ago, which I think fits quite well here (as it does to a lot of things in the engineering world)

Engineering is the art of modelling materials we do not wholly understand, into shapes we cannot precisely analyse so as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess, in such a way that the public has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.

I can show you a complex with 50/60 retirement flats (each with electric cooker, water heating etc) along with communial areas etc, we were upgrading the main switchgear (it was one incomming supply for everything). Now if you did the diversity calcs as per the OSG, to run the place, you'd need a sub on site, maybe two as the demand would be in the KAs, which is clearly nonsence and the supply was a 400A head and CT metering, at this point we didn't know what the fuses were, and my gut feeling was 250A was likely sensisble enough for the place, but before we got too involved in design, we needed to know for sure. Our guy met the chap from the supply board on site and fuses werre pulled, they were 100A. Now I don't think I'd engineer it down to that level, but this place had been on 100A fuses since the mid 80's when it was built without issues
 
Rightly or wrongly (is that even a word) max demand can only be whatever the cut out is rated at.

If you get chance to watch the dno change a cut out have a look at the size of the incoming cable. 10/16mm but it's supplying a potential of 100 amps.

Maximum usage only ever happens on very rare occasions. I call it the Christmas day scenario.

That's when there is a chance that you could pull in excess of 100a if your double oven is on, your 5 ring induction hob is on. Every light in the house is on and along with the heating and numerous appliances.

Then someone jumps in the shower and adds another 8.5kw to the mix.

But how long is everything at full load at the same time ?

If you want to produce an accurate max demand result its either note the power rating of every current using device, or measure under normal use.

An EICR is a snapshot of the installation at a single moment in time just like your vehicles MOT.

I use the either the cut out fuse size or if that's sealed 20kva or 60kva as these are standard values for ordering new supplies from the dno.

The other thing to take into account is at what rating does a 100a 1361 or bs88 fuse actually break ? I know 3036 fuses it was around double the rated current.

Be thankful of this. In other countries you buy a supply at it can be as little as 40a protected via a 60898 mcb on the incoming. The excess required to trip that is very little compared to a fuse.

No doubt others on here will disagree with me. But it's your choice at the end of the day. It's your name on the report and it's you that has to justify and reasons to change the installation to allow you to give it a satisfactory mark.

This is why indemnity insurance isn't cheap, but vital when doing EICR reports. As its your word against another if things go wrong. And it's only through your training, cpd, and experience can you attempt to justify why you did what you did in that moment in time.
 
Ok, Perhaps a non prat youtube channel beckons for you? I would subscribe, as I have learned much from your input on here and you clearly have bags of experience to show us all...........a forum is one thing but a You tube channel is a challenge only the brave seem to take on in the right way. Or those with plenty of time on their hands............................;)
Oh definitely not, I have no desire to massage my ego, plus I have a face for radio 😃
 
No two EICR's are the same, this time a contactum CU has 11 ways/circuits, it is a split load board with 2 x 80 RCD's. 100A main switch.
MCB's are as follows - 32, 32, 32, 20, 20, 6, 32, 20, 20, 6, 6 amps.
I make the Max demand using diversity, 109.6 amps.
I have made a note on the certificate, unsatisfactory of course, and I am now looking for a way forward as the duty holder who ordered the eicr needs a pass asap.
I wont be rushed into signing off a job and am looking for a solution along the lines of using smaller mcbs if possible.
I am not a circuit designer and would appreciate some guidance.

Cheers n stuff

Leigh
Nothing wrong with the board ( it's fine ) out of interest my son is on the 2391-52 at the moment and in that the c2/c3 variations come up and even the lecturers did not agree with correct answer ( it's up to the spark ) sad but true I say use Common Sence as I have done for the last 40 years in the game.
 
I know Gary & Joe personally; they were college lecturers before they went off to form efixx with Gordon.
I have lost touch with Gary since they started efxix, so I don't know if he is still teaching or not.
He does know his onions, but he doesn't know everything.
In that video, it is said more than once that there are other ways of calculating diversity, and it is giving an example of the method shown in the OSG.
The IET themselves publish 3 separate ways of calculating diversity.
The OSG method, the method in the design guide, and the method in the commentary book.
All 3 give different values.
The narrator of the video states that the OSG method just gives a general idea of the demand and says, "a form of diversity", acknowledging that there are other methods, it would seem.
Personally, I would like to know where the extra 12.8 A of load comes from when you just change the board.
If fixed appliances or circuits are added, then I can see a chance for an increase in diversified load.
In this situation, you have removed the storage heaters, so the load on the installation overall should reduce.
The method in the video is also that on page 138 of the OSG Appendix A, table A2, point 9, "Standard arrangement of final circuits in accordance with Appendix H".
If we then go to Appendix H, we find that the sizes of breakers, the configuration of circuits, the cable size, the circuit protective devices, and other things are specified. If the installation in the premises does not comply fully with the design criteria in Appendix H, then the method of diversity in the video cannot be used. In the video it states that the method is for standard circuits as per Appendix H.
So to use the method in Appendix A indent 9 the requirements of Appendix H need to be met.

I had a meeting just last week with the senior engineer at British Gas new technologies, so EV charging, solar panels, battery storage etc.
The topic being diversity in domestic premises.
The outcome of their assessments, when comparing measurements with the various IET calculations.
The result of the calculations gave values well in excess of those measured at the properties.
The measurements went on for weeks, not hours, to ascertain the load profile.

I don't particularly think anyone is "wrong", but many of the methods of calculating diversity give values much greater than those experienced in real life.
Look at the comment on the video by the ex-DNO engineer.
I have been told the same by one of my local DNO engineers, and I don't mean one of the "engineers" who does overhead or underground cable repairs. I mean, one of the engineers who works in the office designing the network.
The engineer I spoke to (many times), told me that they used 40% of the allowed load, or the fuse rating in the cut-out, but they weren't bothered if the fuse was 60, 80 or 100A, so they could allow anywhere from 24 to 40 A per house, & they weren't bothered if the fuse was updated after connection, so you could have a house with a 24 A allowance and a100 A fuse.
The allowed load would come from a connection request form provided by the customer, probably completed by the installation designer.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about the load, as I don't believe that the fuse rating would ever be met.


p.s. One thing I had forgotten about is the proliferation of LED lighting. I bet a house full of LED lighting is MUCH less than 6 A, let alone 40% of 6A per circuit. Some properties will have multiple lighting circuits, I have 5 at home in my bungalow.
Look at the W per point in OSG Appendix A, especially that for lighting.
 
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I think they still do...

john..

2kw for a 4 bed home with gas heating was the figure I remembered. of course EV charging changes the profile quite a bit which is why you are supposed to notify them.

Bear in mind these are across whole housing estates and theres quite a long integration period involved in that average, and also its based on the fact that a lot of their kit can take a high overload for a short duration (especially when the biggest demand traditional comes when its cold outside) Oil filled transformers and cables buried in cold wet ground take a long time to heat up.

Its likely to get even better, a lot of electric vehicles charge points can do intelligent load control so they can tell the charger in the car to ramp down to switch off for a short duration to manage demand, and on a bigger scale, we are staring to see the likes of octopus offer tariffs which give a lower rate for a night time period if you have an EV or charge point that has an API that their backend supports, so that the EV load can be controlled by them, so if you have a lot of excess generation they can tell everyone's EV to ramp up and if they need urgent capacity, they can stop the charging for a bit (I think they guarentee to extend the cheap rate if you hit the end of the window because of this) It perhaps wouldn't be too much of a stretch to in the future have a few CTs on the outgoing street feeders at the local sub reporting back, and provided you know which feeder each property is on, and which phase it takes, then you could probably prevent overloads on a network heavy with EV charging by extending the charging period for a large number of people by only a little amount, I even suppose depending on how resposive it is (including, and particualy the actual chargers in the vehicles) you could even try and balance the phases through modulating EV load and therefore reduce losses in the neutral
 
A lot of information. thanks everyone and I will deal with the other EICR faults, found during this inspection and amend the satisfactory report in regards to the maximum load demand.
When I used to regularly do diversity calculation I used to use the DNO method, ie total the MCBs and multiply by 0.4. But then I got keen with adding lots of small circuits and even that started giving daft numbers.

The trend for EVs in big houses is definitely a possible issue, along with charging up batteries. But even then, everyone used to have night storage heaters and still didn't blow the main fuse, so even these new trends are still usually less load than NSHs. The closest I've seen to maximizing the main fuse is very large houses with luxury items like jacuzzis and clients with lots of money who like lots of electrical gadgets , so much so I've installed 2 phases. Jobs like that are quite rare even in millionaire playground Salcombe, where I've worked a lot.
 
can smart meters not report md over historic data? doh

I don't think so....?? :unsure:

A lot of smart meters still only provide an actual monthly meter reading...

They don't show what the highest simultianeous demand is over a specific period of time...
(well.. ours doesn't!!!) 😐
 
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