Your thoughts ladies & gentlemen please

[scrag]

Scenario. Elderly sparks rewires a flat. Is not part P and not 17th but been doing it all he's life. Work is to a high standard and if in doubt will ask. If I oversee the job and sign it off on a 3 part EIC. Myself doing the insp and test. In effect doing the job of building control. I know a lot of sparks approaching retirement in this position that pass a lot of work my way and feel obligated to help them in return in their final years. Is this acceptable

 

[steptoe]

if you are in direct supervision then it is,

you dont even need a 3 part EIC in a way, but its fine,.

how do you think a QS in most firms works?

 

[kme]

Concur. I`d have no issues with doing this - have done so previously. Same as employing him as a spark to you; and you are the QS / CP

 

[NozSpark]

I have help sometimes on larger jobs,, their name never even appears on the cert! however I am there for the duration of the work

 

[scrag]

Maybe I didn't explain very well. Doing this on my phone doesn't help. Technically I am not a QS on the same firm. Old boy gets paid for rewire and I get paid for testing and paperwork. Two separate entities if you like. I'm basically helping him getting job signed off. Trust him implicably. Just that I am being asked more and more to do this. I will only do this for guys I have worked with and have known for years.

 

[NozSpark]

You shouldn't really be doing this,, you are devaluing your scheme membership...

think of it in a differnet way... they are actually taking work away from you and others who abide by the rules, not helping you out at all

and if anything goes wrong then it's your insurance that's going to take the hit!

 

[Evans Electric]

Steps makes a good point there. On the face of it ,as always said on here , you can't sign off any one else's jobs, BUT, when busy there are two sparkies working with me , neither are scam members , but if its domestic , I certify the job.

I think Scraggy is justified in certing in that case , if he has been involved with it.

 

[scrag]

Insurance could be an issue if anything went crash bandicoo and I don't like doing this. How many of you have not. These are hard times for everyone and we have too help each other out. That's the way I see it. Havnt been called scraggy for years

 

[Evans Electric]

One thing its best not to do on this Forum is complain about what you are called , as I found when I first joined. I just mentioned that I hadn't realised that nick-names are used on Forums and I was the only one to use my business name . The rest is history.

 

[revjames]

I think the key thing here is trust. Do you know them well enough to trust their abilities and then effectively take responsibility for their work? At the end of the day its your signature on the EIC

 

[ianmacd]

The legal position is clear. You can not do that. If you were employing someone to assist in your work that would be different as you would be supervising them thought the job, but this is not the case here. You can give an EIC (3 parter as you suggest) but LABC notification should not be done though your scam.

 

[kme]

Ian - think we`ve touched on this before. Who does have the responsibility for notifying? Designer, installer or test/inspector?

From my POV, the last one there is the one to "commision" the install; and the BRCS notification is supposed to be the same date as the cert; and, in some cases, asks for cert. no.

Designer / installer have completed their work by this point - why would you want to drag them back into it?

I consider the person who is responsible for certification to be the person responsible for notifying work to LABC, though this is just my (logical) opinion.

KME

 

[spinlondon]

Actually, it is the house holder, or person ordering the work who is responsible for notifiction.

This can be either through pre-notification, or by employing someone who is a member of a self certification scheme.

3 part or long form EICs cannot be used for self certification, they can only be used for 'pre' or in some cases, retrospective notification.

The tester should sign the EIC and then deliver it to the house holder or person ordering the work.

 

[kme]

Alright.

So - if the householder is doing the work themselves, they don`t need to employ a scam member to test & inspect, as they`ve already shelled out for notification?

Could you tell me WHERE it is stated that you cannot use a "full" EIC for certifying works?

KME

 

[spinlondon]

Irrespective of whether the householder conducts the work himself, it is still their responsibility to make notification of any building work.

As far as I'm aware nowhere.

The approved document however does state that:

"An electrical installlation certificate can be issued only by the installer responsible for the installation work."

That aside, correct me if I'm wrong; to self certificate, you have to use the forms provided by your scheme operator.

As far as I'm aware, the scheme operators only issue a version of the short form EICs for this purpose?

 

[Andy™]

you can use any certs. scam providers have their own you can use, but you dont have to

 

[kme]

Quite right, Andy - although, even if it were the case, I know the NIC have a "full" EIC in purple (for DIs).......

The householder may be responsible ; but surely they pass this requirement onto the scheme member they employ; else they wouldn`t need to use a scheme member at all!

So - we are actually saying the Installer (in the case of a 3 part) is the ONLY one who needs to be registered with a scam - the designer & tester/inspector don`t have to be?

That doesn`t make any sense, AFAIAC.

I`m not saying you`re wrong, as I don`t have any definitive information available - but it sounds wrong.

KME

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 16:49 ---------- Previous post was made at 16:41 ----------

Look at a different scenario:

three firms (ALL part P registered) are involved in a new build. Company "A" designs the install, company "B" constructs it, and company "C" does inspection, test & issues 3 part EIC.

Which firm should notify LABC through their scheme?

discuss...................

 

[scrag]

Why use scams certs. Any cert will do. Make up your own if you want so long as all the information requested in BRB is included. I argued this point with nic on assessment day and he conceded. I wasn't gonna pay their extortionate rates for a bit of paper

 

[spinlondon]

Normally none, as a new build would require planning permission, and pre-notification.

However, it is usually the designer that deals with paperwork etc. The designer will want sight of the certificate for confirmation that their design has been followed, and that the measured values etc. meet their design specs.

The NICEIC as far as I'm aware produce a number of certificates etc.

However for self certification, I am reliably informed that only one is acceptable, that being the short one.

 

[scrag]

Correct me if I am wrong. Does it matter who signs off or notifies. As long as the work is to standards and tested and complies with BC. The person who signs it off is the one where the buck stops and the one that is responsible