Ring or radial please?

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I'm not saying you don't need to take exams, what I'm saying is that you need to know what you are doing before taking certain exams. If you are newly qualified then in my opinion you don't have the experience to fully understand everything yet so how can you expect to do I&T properly? you cant!

If you don't fully understand how something works, then you can't expect to know how to fix it when it goes wrong. These days there seems to be a culture of collecting bits of paper that say you are qualified to do something without actually having any practical experience, that is what I disagree with.
Short courses or fastrack, or whatever they call them these days would have been fine for people who'd been in the industry for years, as say mates, to get their qualifications and so get a job as a spark. These days a lot of those doing fast track may have a piece of paper saying they can do the job but can they? I remember years ago working for one firm, I didn't have my 2391, and the gaffer kept making a big deal of the fact, at every opportunity he'd pipe up, "ah yes, but I've got my 2391, you haven't". One say he asked me to meet him on a job, they'd installed a new boiler and it wouldn't run, he removed the cover and started poking about inside with his meter, about an hour later he was no nearer to getting it running.

A while later I decided to put him out of his misery, "you're a core short" I said, he looked at me like I was mad.

"No I'm not, it's got a live from the timer, a neutral and an earth" he replied

There was a  block and on this were 4 terminals, L, N,E and SL, he'd wired to the SL,N and E terminals. I took a single core cable and temporarily connected it from the FCU to the L terminal, the boiler ran.

"These boilers need a permanent live for the pump overrun" I told him

"when did you spot that?" he asked

"as soon as you took the cover off" I replied

"why didn't you say something?" he asked

"because, you keep saying you're better than me, as you have your 2391 and I don't" I replied

Funnily enough it was never mentioned again, yes he had the bit of paper, but I had the experience.

 
Hi,

SAFETY is paramount.

I've already admitted I was unaware of the regulations before starting this job which has been going on for some time. You can quote every regulation number in the book to me but I don't have the book and was unaware of the regulations I have breached but my actual hands on work I'll stand by and I consider myself competent in this respect. I've been open and honest from the start saying I was doing this work and would get it passed off; how many would know a CU has to be registered other than an electrician after all these CU's are available through eBay to a five year old who can press a few computer keys and use PayPal. Why would I search for something not knowing it existed or what to search for.

I joined this forum because I am very safety conscious and a responsible person. I've tried my best to explain that I've done lots of electrical work spanning over 50 years but this accounts for nothing because this work isn't covered by lots of numbers or regulations but the work is equally or even more dangerous than household wiring. This is an electrical forum and I joined wanting to improve myself and to see what is now available regarding modern materials and equipment; "Ring or radial" I asked in order to determine best for my application; I never asked anything that referred to cost cutting or saving money I stand by what I say in that whatever I do I do well and if I think I can improve I ask which is what I've done.

The work I'm doing is on existing circuits which have been in place for over 50 years; I even bought a socket loop tester to ensure all was in order which according to the socket tester it is; this is not a new build and as everything was working without the slightest problem and the socket tester confirmed this I didn't see the point of spending time running an insulation test using my Evershed & Vignoles 1,000V Megger; I made it absolutely clear my work once completed would be fully tested and I stand by this. I've admitted I'm ignorant regarding current regulations but this doesn't mean I'm ignorant when it comes to practical work; I was wrongly under the impression I could do the work then get it passed off. How many beginners or novices are watching YouTube videos showing how to install a CU then think they can safely do the work; where's the regulations here? How many times in previous years has advice been given to have electrical work tested after its been done and more to the point how many did have their work tested?

Regarding paper qualifications just look how good these are when it comes to the Grenfell Tower inferno; what good the regulations when it comes to the Grenfell Tower inferno; how many qualified people actually do a good job; do all electricians take long their bible and read it before cutting a bit of cable; how good is a newly qualified electrician having spent a lot of time in the classroom. How many pass their driving test then go straight into an accident. I've not skimped nor tried to save a penny and when I say I'll get my work tested it won't be a chum either it will be an independent electrician and I'll pay whatever it costs.

I don't have paper qualifications regarding electricity but for electrical jobs I do I've got over 50 years hands on experience and this of course counts for nothing because I can't back it up with a paper certificate?

I'm quite surprised steptoe in you thinking both gas and electric are equal regarding safety? The reason I will not work on gas is that I was taught about gas safety whilst working down a deep coal mine during my apprenticeship; I'm also fully qualified in the setting up and use of BOC gas welding and cutting equipment.

Take an extreme example; a sealed room with doors and windows closed; there is a length of electric cable which is live laying on the floor but the conductors not in contact with anything being in free space; this cable could remain there untouched and not cause an accident; a length of gas pipe in the same situation with the gas turned on and the end of the pipe vented to the atmosphere; both are dangerous but which more-so?

How many gas pipes are protected by;

Incoming fuse.

Fuse.

MCB.

RCD.

RCBO.

I've been very open about my activities and come to the correct place for expert guidance but quite a number of replies would drive any novice away to suck it and see; Safety is my concern and over rides everything else and I won't be the only one having done this kind of work being unaware of the legislation so have I done the wrong thing by asking when in my ignorance I could have assumed as long as the job was safe it would be OK.

This is an electrical forum frequented by novices with no electrical experience at all; pointing out by adding numerous references to a regulations book is fine but wouldn't it have been better to explain that regulations have moved on and say in simple terms that such work now cannot be carried out unless the person doing the work is qualified on both practical and paperwork demands; I didn't know the CU had to be registered.

I wonder how many paper certificates Heinrich Rudolf Hertz; Guglielmo Marconi; Thomas Edison  or even Isambard Kingdom Brunel had between them? How many qualified electricians can even fully name the first three?

The original fuse boxes and the previous CU didn't have any labels attached but I've made the horror of all mistakes by placing the labels on the bus bar cover;  I should be shot for this as its disastrous? Please see picture below; this CU will have labels on both it's bus bar and outer cover; the electrician can add the labels to the outer cover.

I wasn't going to reply further on the forum because members adding lots of replies with many references to regulations is fire fighting in this case; the electrician passing the work off should be fully aware of what is needed.

A friend kindly emailed me yesterday and one comment really stood out "They don't know you".

Kind regards, Colin.

DSCN2840.JPG

 
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Hi,

SAFETY is paramount.

I've already admitted I was unaware of the regulations before starting this job which has been going on for some time. You can quote every regulation number in the book to me but I don't have the book and was unaware of the regulations I have breached but my actual hands on work I'll stand by and I consider myself competent in this respect. I've been open and honest from the start saying I was doing this work and would get it passed off; how many would know a CU has to be registered other than an electrician after all these CU's are available through eBay to a five year old who can press a few computer keys and use PayPal. Why would I search for something not knowing it existed or what to search for.


After reading most of this thread I am amazed at your opening paragraph to this post.  The way that people like you find out what regulations apply to any work you are doing is by reading the installation guides that come with a product. I am not aware of any consumer unit, (or many sockets or switches for that mater) that don't have a bit of paper saying this must be installed in accordance with BS761 & building regulations. Your unit was a British General item, copies of two such product sheets. attached below, both have the text in bold toward the top of the sheet and  If someone is not aware of building regulations then a quick internet search pops up pages such as:- https://www.gov.uk/building-regulations-approval/when-you-need-approval

Whilst you are no doubt confident and able to connect up wires, I cannot see how you can claim to be competent. By you own admission you are aware that things have changed since 25years ago when you installed your old fuse box. Whatever the trade, a competent person would verify that have the right product and tools for the job and check any applicable regulations or documentation needed once the job is complete. To do other wise would be asking for trouble.

BS7671 wiring regulations testing and certification requires dead tests to be satisfactory before commencing the live tests. Then all results documented on an applicable certificate.This is not a new requirement. Building regulations notification has been required since 2005 (amended 2010) this is not particularly new either. So what we actually see is someone who is aware that things have changed but chooses not to investigate these changes or to follow industry standard installation guides for 99.99% of electrical accessories. It really doesn't give the impression that safety is paramount. To quote examples of others adopting bad practices is irrelevant and no defence for anyone to also choosing to ignore building regulations or BS7671 guidance. In this modern internet age information is very freely available.

Doc H. 

INSTALLTION INSTRUCTIONS.jpg

 
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I wasn't having a go at you Col, I was replying to Lurch's comment about me being vocal about exams, as you said in your post, there are a lot of people who have the right bits of paper and still get it wrong.

Personally I don't really care what anyone else does, and that's being honest! When I joined the trade many years ago there was only one type of electrician, you went to college and you learned about the whole package. Now for whatever reason, you have what I call "real" electricians, who've been trained properly, then you have the short course brigade, which the NI laughingly call Domestic Installers.

Now I'd be fine with these DI's if they'd stick to what they were trained at, unfortunately too many of them decide to venture into area's about which they have little or no knowledge, and about as much experience, this is what I have issues with.

I was speaking to a bloke recently, he was in his 40's and had decided to become an electrician, he'd never worked in any associated industry, but, he had the money to do a short course, which he had indeed done. He came out with a worrying comment which showed the level of his knowledge, "I love forums, if I come across anything I don't know how to do then I go on a forum and ask".

Now I'm not being funny, I know how to do first aid, but going by his attitude, then it would be fine for me to go on a forum, or watch a few video's then go out and start performing major surgery!

If a member of the public, such as yourself, decides to start altering his wiring at home and makes a complete B of it, there are a few possible outcomes, such as, burning the house down, or killing yourself or a member of your family!

If however someone with little or no experience however decides to set up as an electrician and start doing work for others, then that's a whole different dynamic, you are potentially risking the lives of other people who happen to be paying for being put at risk.

In recent years there's been an increase in problems caused by poorly tightened terminals, predominantly I may add in the London area, now is this down to shoddy equipment, or is it down to people who don't actually know how to tighten a terminal?

There's a lot of talk of using torque screwdrivers nowadays (unheard of when I started out), Same with RCD's, they used to be a form of secondary protection, now they seem to have become a primary device, why? Because in my opinion people cannot work out if one is really needed or not, it's the same with a rodded earth, hardly a week goes by without someone asking whether they should use the supplied earth, to a shed, or stick a rod in. If they did rod it the chances are they'd bang a short thin one in and leave it at that.

If the likes of the NI,IET et al wanted to do something useful then a good start would be to stop changing the regs every five minutes just to make money, the 18th are a disaster from what I've heard.

There's a great deal of stuff put in which may not be relevant to a lot of people, now there's a good idea for a course, make it like a driving licence, you pass your initial test, then if you want to or need to you can add extra classes such as LGV,PSV, etc.Why not make the electrical regs like that, you do a basic regs course covering the usual stuff, then add extra modules for the likes of EV chargers or solar. That way there'd be no need for A) changing regs just to make money, and B) people spending money on books and courses which deal with stuff they will never work on.

 
Hi,

Thanks Doc H. I'm not trying to defend what I've done because its now made clear I've carried out work which I shouldn't have carried out;  I upgraded from a number of old fused units to a then modern Wylex 6 way CU over 25 years ago and yes there will have been regulations in force even then which I wasn't aware of; does a certificate though make me proficient in tightening screws; I'm a mechanical engineer and to date I've not had anything drop off or come loose in all the 55 years since I was apprentice; how long a test does something need before its deemed OK; the previous CU I installed has done over 25 years trouble free service without the slightest problem and I installed that one live; I've not yet turned fully senile preventing me tightening small screws and this time I pulled the mains fuse; in this respect what would an electrician do differently. Do you actually sit down and read full instructions before use say in using a brand new car; our new Yeti SEL 2.0L diesel comes with Adblue and a whole host of other up to date electronic equipment much which I still don't understand and don't wish to use; Bron and I have just returned from Barnsley and a dash board icon illuminated indicating low tyre pressure? Back home I immediately checked all four tyres which were exactly 32 psi each so why the warning? I know the spare is set at 36 psi and I checked this a short while ago so I doubt it's sprung a leak whilst stowed in the boot. How many buy a circular saw or chain saw and read the instructions; I'm on the firing line because I do care about what I do and I've put my head above the parapet. The only difference between the new and old CU are the RCD's plus of course its metal clad.

I've done this job before and I still retain a decent memory; it's already been established a number of times the reasons I wanted to upgrade our bungalow electrics and this without waiting for problems to arise; I'm sorry if I've offended in doing this work without having a certificate but I still maintain I can tighten a screw with the best of them. I don't intend any offence to anyone who has the qualifications on paper but what do all these tests actually do; they prove the circuit is correct which it should already be before even testing; I'm not trained to build faults into my work and given the upgrade and extra protection afforded by both mcb's and RCD's then I believe if I had done something stupid like crossing a line and neutral then the equipment would be quick to let me know otherwise what's the point of upgrading for safety. I've not read the instructions nor have I read amendment 17 or amendment 18 or in 6 months when its up to amendment 22; I'm not taking the Mickey but I am very capable of running a cable without exposing conductors and then connecting both ends of the cable ensuring all screws are tightened; I manage this without a certificate. All the original cables remain in excellent condition and any new cables I've installed are rated for the job and are brand new; connectors and junction boxes etc are also correct rating; entries are correct being up to date Wiska. I don't do any electrical work for anyone else only on our own bungalow and not only is my work protected by mcb's and now RCD's it will be fully certified shortly when I consider it ready to be tested. I started this job ages ago and having made a lot of progress I want the lot fully testing in one go. 

Thanks phil d; no offence taken at all; one good thing to come out of all this is all the up to date information which hopefully will now deter others from even starting this kind of work; once the full testing is carried out I'll be happy to leave well alone in future and will then from a clean sheet adhere to regulations at the moment I feel caught like a rabbit in headlights; employing an independent electrician to carry out the final testing should let me know if I've done anything wrong.

Kind regards, Colin.

 
Just for the record electrical training and certificates are a little bit more involved than just tightening screws. Whilst it is quite probable that your work may well turn out to be electrically safe and functional. There will also be numerous members on here who have seen work that "has been working ok for years" and was done by "a man who knows about electrics" yet has many deficiencies that do not comply and may never have complied with any wiring regulations ever.  Approaching any alteration or addition to any installation assuming what is existing must be right because it has been there for years is not good practice. I was merely pointing out that competence also includes sufficient knowledge and skill of not just for the practical work but also any applicable legal requirements, hence why 99.999% of all electrical accessory instructions use phrases such as should be installed by competent person in accordance with BS7671 etc. to cover their back if someone injures themselves by incorrectly wiring an item to make it work. But if people choose to ignore instructions or guidance given with a product they can't claim to have not been told how it should have been done. It is not uncommon to see fancy decorative metal light switches connected to old wiring with no CPC, leaving unearthed exposed conductive parts, although in the customers eyes they have been working for years and therefore it must be right.  Electrical wiring does deteriorate with age hence the guidance for inspection and testing domestic wiring every 10 years or change or occupancy. So the correct assumption to make when upgrading a fuse box on a 25year old installation, would be assume all circuits are wrong or faulty until you have re-tested and proved them electrically safe to re energise.  

Doc H.

 
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I wasn't having a go at you Col, I was replying to Lurch's comment about me being vocal about exams, as you said in your post, there are a lot of people who have the right bits of paper and still get it wrong.

Personally I don't really care what anyone else does, and that's being honest! When I joined the trade many years ago there was only one type of electrician, you went to college and you learned about the whole package. Now for whatever reason, you have what I call "real" electricians, who've been trained properly, then you have the short course brigade, which the NI laughingly call Domestic Installers.

Now I'd be fine with these DI's if they'd stick to what they were trained at, unfortunately too many of them decide to venture into area's about which they have little or no knowledge, and about as much experience, this is what I have issues with.

I was speaking to a bloke recently, he was in his 40's and had decided to become an electrician, he'd never worked in any associated industry, but, he had the money to do a short course, which he had indeed done. He came out with a worrying comment which showed the level of his knowledge, "I love forums, if I come across anything I don't know how to do then I go on a forum and ask".

Now I'm not being funny, I know how to do first aid, but going by his attitude, then it would be fine for me to go on a forum, or watch a few video's then go out and start performing major surgery!

If a member of the public, such as yourself, decides to start altering his wiring at home and makes a complete B of it, there are a few possible outcomes, such as, burning the house down, or killing yourself or a member of your family!

If however someone with little or no experience however decides to set up as an electrician and start doing work for others, then that's a whole different dynamic, you are potentially risking the lives of other people who happen to be paying for being put at risk.

In recent years there's been an increase in problems caused by poorly tightened terminals, predominantly I may add in the London area, now is this down to shoddy equipment, or is it down to people who don't actually know how to tighten a terminal?

There's a lot of talk of using torque screwdrivers nowadays (unheard of when I started out), Same with RCD's, they used to be a form of secondary protection, now they seem to have become a primary device, why? Because in my opinion people cannot work out if one is really needed or not, it's the same with a rodded earth, hardly a week goes by without someone asking whether they should use the supplied earth, to a shed, or stick a rod in. If they did rod it the chances are they'd bang a short thin one in and leave it at that.

If the likes of the NI,IET et al wanted to do something useful then a good start would be to stop changing the regs every five minutes just to make money, the 18th are a disaster from what I've heard.

There's a great deal of stuff put in which may not be relevant to a lot of people, now there's a good idea for a course, make it like a driving licence, you pass your initial test, then if you want to or need to you can add extra classes such as LGV,PSV, etc.Why not make the electrical regs like that, you do a basic regs course covering the usual stuff, then add extra modules for the likes of EV chargers or solar. That way there'd be no need for A) changing regs just to make money, and B) people spending money on books and courses which deal with stuff they will never work on.


To suggest that Domestic Installers and 'the short course brigade' are one and the same is ignorant and misleading.

 
Is there a long course to become what the NIC define a domestic installer? 


Domestic Installers will have varying qualifications including level 3 I&T etc. gained over years of college attendance. Yes some will have short course qualifications but far from all. The choice between DI and  AC very often comes down to the extra admin burden that AC involves which is sometimes not justifiable for small companies/ sole traders.

 
once the full testing is carried out I'll be happy to leave well alone in future and will then from a clean sheet adhere to regulations at the moment I feel caught like a rabbit in headlights; employing an independent electrician to carry out the final testing should let me know if I've done anything wrong.

Kind regards, Colin.


We’re back to the old chestnut, who is going to issue the EIC?

At best you may get an EICR. Even that would be a bit chancy if you’re hoping for a “clean bill of heath” for the installation.

BTW if you post again could we skip the essays about your life, stick to the pertinent facts PLEASE.

 
Is there a long course to become what the NIC define a domestic installer? 


I think that when the DI scheme was first introduced, a short course was not an option, (not sure they actually existed then?). A contractor was expected to be trading issuing correct certs etc, and have all the standard C&G's. There was no requirement for an electrician to be a member of any trade body, unless their customers had specific stipulations about which companies were allowed to undertake work for them. So the initial batch of DI's were more likely to be just regular electricians looking for what they considered the most effective way of self certifying any domestic work they did that needed part P notification. Unlikely to be 5WW short course fodder, obviously over recent years things have changed somewhat.

Doc H.

 
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I think that when the DI scheme was first introduced, a short course was not an option, (not sure they actually existed then?). A contractor was expected to be trading issuing correct certs etc, and have all the standard C&G's. There was no requirement for an electrician to be a member of any trade body, unless their customers had specific stipulations about which companies were allowed to undertake work for them. So the initial batch of DI's were more likely to be just regular electricians looking for what they considered the most effective way of self certifying any domestic work they did that needed part P notification. Unlikely to be 5WW short course fodder, obviously over recent years things have changed somewhat.

Doc H.


I've never worked in the domestic sector. 

However I am due to be changing the CU in my house, an I've no way of notifying it.. tin hat on.

(Yes Tony, that CU that's been sat waiting almost 3 years now) 

 
I would only add a little experience from changing out old boards to new ones, i.e. RCD protection.

Some of the benefits of the testing prior to energising and hand over is to prove.

1. That the installation is not already breaking down to earth or between conductors 

2. That any RCD installed will operate without nuisance tripping.

3. When everything is running and house loaded up, the Cu is stable.

You cannot do this without the correct use of test equipment so your installation may or may not be stable, you dont know yet.

The whole point of all this stuff MCB, RCD fuses etc is to ensure that when a fault occurs the installation responds elegantly. Simply thinking because it works all is good is massively naive and missing the whole point of all the safety measures put in place. What you need to prove is that the installation will deal with a fault in the correct manner and safeguard people and property.. SO FAR FROM WHAT I CAN MAKE OUT YOU HAVE NOT YET DONE THIS.

 
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