Sharpend
"It Just Is"
Well unless I'm mistaken that states metal as non combustible and PLASTIC meeting requirement as not readily combustible?
So where do you get your information from Matt?
So where do you get your information from Matt?
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- Thread starter NozSpark
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Help Support Talk Electrician Forum:
That is a very valid point Noz, in a Caravan park I would imaging the supply (consumer unit) is generally outside and not in an enclosed area and as such is not combustible to surrounding materials.
Manufacturers 'sharpend'
Manufacturers 'sharpend'
Sharpend
"It Just Is"
So you have called a mfr who has told you that they will only be producing metal CU's, did you ask if they are stopping all plastic enclosures? Also was it a top end brand mfr or a cheap bottom end mfr?
Jono Pashley
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Are you completely ignoring then part about "not readily combustable material"?
Matt... If you read the proposed Reg correctly you will find that its the switchgear enclosure that will need to be non combustable,,,, not the surrounding materials.
I mentioned caravan supply boxes because these are also used for mobile homes where they are located pretty much as close to them as possible
I mentioned caravan supply boxes because these are also used for mobile homes where they are located pretty much as close to them as possible
Ok I will.
In fact I have just emailed a couple so will let you know what they say.................after they stop laughing
msl1:
Well I bet Gewiss will be developing a plastic one
.......amongst many
.......amongst many
Look Mat, IF that is your real name.
You have taken to making unfounded judgements against posters on the forum.
You have resulted to personal insults, and you have called into doubt the opinions of some very qualified, experienced and competent people, and you have as yet not taken the time to justify your comments, they have just been as far as I can see derogatory or critical, I cannot say that I have seen a valid engineering “argument” from you for any of the points that you have made.
Now you claim to be well qualified. OK that’s fine, you are not the only one.
I for one will be continuing to use insulated consumer units and totally ignoring this regulation if and when it comes in, I will simply be ensuring that the consumer units I use are to the relevant product standard, as when this is so, by default this regulation is complied with, as it merely re-iterates the requirements of BS EN 61439-1 & -3 the product standards for consumer units.
I will get the relevant sections of the standards and post them later.
The forum post character limit will prevent me from posting the whole lot in one post.
You have taken to making unfounded judgements against posters on the forum.
You have resulted to personal insults, and you have called into doubt the opinions of some very qualified, experienced and competent people, and you have as yet not taken the time to justify your comments, they have just been as far as I can see derogatory or critical, I cannot say that I have seen a valid engineering “argument” from you for any of the points that you have made.
Now you claim to be well qualified. OK that’s fine, you are not the only one.
I for one will be continuing to use insulated consumer units and totally ignoring this regulation if and when it comes in, I will simply be ensuring that the consumer units I use are to the relevant product standard, as when this is so, by default this regulation is complied with, as it merely re-iterates the requirements of BS EN 61439-1 & -3 the product standards for consumer units.
I will get the relevant sections of the standards and post them later.
The forum post character limit will prevent me from posting the whole lot in one post.
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A cow has 4 legs
A chair has 4 legs
So a Cow is a Chair........Q.E.D.
Not too sure what relevance that has, but it must have some
A chair has 4 legs
So a Cow is a Chair........Q.E.D.
Not too sure what relevance that has, but it must have some
OK, I've looked up some product standards and done some cross referencing.
The proposed BS7671 reg is a non reg. the requirement is already built into the product standard.
So, the changes will have already have been made by the manufacturers as the standard has been in place for a few years now.
As follows over the next few posts.
[SIZE=10pt]Actually, if the enclosures are CE marked, designed, built and tested to the relevant product standard, then, now, IF they are made of a polymer material then they WILL comply with that proposed regulation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Excerpts from BS EN 61439-1:2011 - Low-voltage switchgear and controlgear assemblies Part 1: General rules[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]8.1.3.2 Resistance of insulating materials to heat and fire[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]8.1.3.2.1 General[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Parts of insulating materials which might be exposed to thermal stresses due to internal[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]electrical effects, and the deterioration of which might impair the safety of the ASSEMBLY, shall[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]not be adversely affected by normal (operational) heat, abnormal heat or fire.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]8.1.3.2.2 Resistance of insulating materials to heat[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The original manufacturer shall select insulating materials either by reference to the insulation[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]temperature index (determined for example by the methods of IEC 60216) or by compliance[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]with IEC 60085.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]8.1.3.2.3 Resistance of insulating materials to abnormal heat and fire due to internal[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]electric effects[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Insulating materials used for parts necessary to retain current carrying parts in position and[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]parts which might be exposed to thermal stresses due to internal electrical effects, and the[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]deterioration of which might impair the safety of the ASSEMBLY, shall not be adversely affected[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]by abnormal heat and fire and shall be verified by the glow-wire test in 10.2.3.2. For the[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]purpose of this test, a protective conductor (PE) is not considered as a current-carrying part.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]For small parts (having surface dimensions not exceeding 14 mm x 14 mm), an alternative[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]test may be used (e.g. needle flame test, according to IEC 60695-11-5). The same procedure[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]may be applicable for other practical reasons where the metal material of a part is large[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]compared to the insulating material.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]10.2.3.2 Verification of resistance of insulating materials to abnormal heat and fire[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]due to internal electric effects[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The glow-wire test principles of IEC 60695-2-10 and the details given in IEC 60695-2-11 shall[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]be used to verify the suitability of materials used:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]a) on parts of ASSEMBLIES, or[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]b) on parts taken from these parts.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The test shall be carried out on material with the minimum thickness used for the parts in a)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]or b).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]If an identical material having representative cross-sections as the parts has already satisfied[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]the requirements of 8.1.3.2.3 then the test need not be repeated. It is the same for all parts[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]which have been previously tested according to their own specifications.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]For a description of the test, see Clause 4 of IEC 60695-2-11:2000. The apparatus to be used[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]shall be as described in Clause 5 of IEC 60695-2-11:2000.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The temperature of the tip of the glow-wire shall be as follows:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]– 960 °C for parts necessary to retain current-carrying parts in position;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]– 850 °C for enclosures intended for mounting in hollow walls;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]– 650 °C for all other parts, including parts necessary to retain the protective conductor.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]As an alternative the original manufacturer shall provide data on the suitability of materials[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]from the insulating material supplier to demonstrate compliance with the requirements of[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]8.1.3.2.3.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]This test applies only to enclosures and external parts of ASSEMBLIES intended to be installed[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]outdoors and which are constructed of insulating materials or metals that are entirely coated[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]by synthetic material. Representative samples of such parts shall be subjected to the[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]following test:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]UV test according to ISO 4892-2 Method A, Cycle 1 providing a total test period of 500 h. For[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]enclosures constructed of insulating materials compliance is checked by verification that the[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]flexural strength (according to ISO 178) and Charpy impact (according to ISO 179) of[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]insulating materials have 70 % minimum retention.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The test shall be made on six test specimens of standard size according to ISO 178 and on[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]six test specimens of standard size according to ISO 179. The test specimens shall be made[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]under the same conditions as those used for the manufacture of the enclosure concerned.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]For the test carried out in accordance with ISO 178, the surface of the sample exposed to UV[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]shall be turned face down and the pressure applied to the non exposed surface.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]For the test carried out in accordance with ISO 179 for materials whose impact bending[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]strength cannot be determined prior to exposure because no rupture has occurred, not more[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]than three of the exposed test specimens shall be allowed to break.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]For compliance, enclosures constructed of metals entirely coated by synthetic material, the[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]adherence of the synthetic material shall have a minimum retention of category 3 according to[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ISO 2409.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Samples shall not show cracks or deterioration visible to normal or corrected vision without[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]additional magnification.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]This test need not be carried out if the original manufacturer can provide data from the[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]material supplier to demonstrate that material of the same type and thickness or thinner[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]complies with this requirement.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]I will enter the titles of the cross referenced standards at the end of the last post.[/SIZE]
The proposed BS7671 reg is a non reg. the requirement is already built into the product standard.
So, the changes will have already have been made by the manufacturers as the standard has been in place for a few years now.
As follows over the next few posts.
[SIZE=10pt]Actually, if the enclosures are CE marked, designed, built and tested to the relevant product standard, then, now, IF they are made of a polymer material then they WILL comply with that proposed regulation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Excerpts from BS EN 61439-1:2011 - Low-voltage switchgear and controlgear assemblies Part 1: General rules[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]8.1.3.2 Resistance of insulating materials to heat and fire[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]8.1.3.2.1 General[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Parts of insulating materials which might be exposed to thermal stresses due to internal[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]electrical effects, and the deterioration of which might impair the safety of the ASSEMBLY, shall[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]not be adversely affected by normal (operational) heat, abnormal heat or fire.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]8.1.3.2.2 Resistance of insulating materials to heat[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The original manufacturer shall select insulating materials either by reference to the insulation[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]temperature index (determined for example by the methods of IEC 60216) or by compliance[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]with IEC 60085.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]8.1.3.2.3 Resistance of insulating materials to abnormal heat and fire due to internal[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]electric effects[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Insulating materials used for parts necessary to retain current carrying parts in position and[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]parts which might be exposed to thermal stresses due to internal electrical effects, and the[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]deterioration of which might impair the safety of the ASSEMBLY, shall not be adversely affected[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]by abnormal heat and fire and shall be verified by the glow-wire test in 10.2.3.2. For the[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]purpose of this test, a protective conductor (PE) is not considered as a current-carrying part.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]For small parts (having surface dimensions not exceeding 14 mm x 14 mm), an alternative[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]test may be used (e.g. needle flame test, according to IEC 60695-11-5). The same procedure[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]may be applicable for other practical reasons where the metal material of a part is large[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]compared to the insulating material.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]10.2.3.2 Verification of resistance of insulating materials to abnormal heat and fire[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]due to internal electric effects[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The glow-wire test principles of IEC 60695-2-10 and the details given in IEC 60695-2-11 shall[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]be used to verify the suitability of materials used:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]a) on parts of ASSEMBLIES, or[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]b) on parts taken from these parts.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The test shall be carried out on material with the minimum thickness used for the parts in a)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]or b).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]If an identical material having representative cross-sections as the parts has already satisfied[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]the requirements of 8.1.3.2.3 then the test need not be repeated. It is the same for all parts[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]which have been previously tested according to their own specifications.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]For a description of the test, see Clause 4 of IEC 60695-2-11:2000. The apparatus to be used[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]shall be as described in Clause 5 of IEC 60695-2-11:2000.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The temperature of the tip of the glow-wire shall be as follows:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]– 960 °C for parts necessary to retain current-carrying parts in position;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]– 850 °C for enclosures intended for mounting in hollow walls;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]– 650 °C for all other parts, including parts necessary to retain the protective conductor.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]As an alternative the original manufacturer shall provide data on the suitability of materials[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]from the insulating material supplier to demonstrate compliance with the requirements of[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]8.1.3.2.3.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]This test applies only to enclosures and external parts of ASSEMBLIES intended to be installed[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]outdoors and which are constructed of insulating materials or metals that are entirely coated[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]by synthetic material. Representative samples of such parts shall be subjected to the[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]following test:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]UV test according to ISO 4892-2 Method A, Cycle 1 providing a total test period of 500 h. For[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]enclosures constructed of insulating materials compliance is checked by verification that the[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]flexural strength (according to ISO 178) and Charpy impact (according to ISO 179) of[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]insulating materials have 70 % minimum retention.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The test shall be made on six test specimens of standard size according to ISO 178 and on[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]six test specimens of standard size according to ISO 179. The test specimens shall be made[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]under the same conditions as those used for the manufacture of the enclosure concerned.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]For the test carried out in accordance with ISO 178, the surface of the sample exposed to UV[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]shall be turned face down and the pressure applied to the non exposed surface.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]For the test carried out in accordance with ISO 179 for materials whose impact bending[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]strength cannot be determined prior to exposure because no rupture has occurred, not more[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]than three of the exposed test specimens shall be allowed to break.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]For compliance, enclosures constructed of metals entirely coated by synthetic material, the[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]adherence of the synthetic material shall have a minimum retention of category 3 according to[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ISO 2409.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Samples shall not show cracks or deterioration visible to normal or corrected vision without[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]additional magnification.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]This test need not be carried out if the original manufacturer can provide data from the[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]material supplier to demonstrate that material of the same type and thickness or thinner[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]complies with this requirement.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]I will enter the titles of the cross referenced standards at the end of the last post.[/SIZE]
I was going to ask that....
[SIZE=10pt]BS EN 61439-3:2012[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Incorporating corrigendum September 2013, Low-voltage switchgear and[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]controlgear assemblies. Part 3: Distribution boards intended to be operated by ordinary persons (DBO)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]8 Constructional requirements[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]This clause of Part 1 applies except as follows.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]8.2.1 Protection against mechanical impact[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Replacement:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The DBO shall comply with the following IK codes according to IEC 62262[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]– IK 05 for a DBO for indoor use,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]– IK 07 for a DBO for outdoor use.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Compliance shall be verified according to 10.2.6.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]NOTE In the USA, no IK code is required as the requirements applicable to a “type” designation (see Note 1 in[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]8.2.2 of IEC 61439-1:2011) cover this consideration.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]10.2.3.2 Verification of resistance of insulating materials to abnormal heat and fire due[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]to internal electric effects[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The last paragraph of Part 1 does not apply.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Addition:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]NOTE 850 °C does not apply to accessible parts of the enclosure after mounting in hollow walls e.g. covers,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Doors.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Standards referenced.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]If there are any missed please ask & I can get their titles.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ISO 178 Plastics - Determination of flexural properties[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ISO 179 Plastics - Determination of Charpy impact properties[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ISO 2409 Paints and varnishes - Cross-cut test[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ISO 4892-2 Plastics - Methods of exposure to laboratory light sources - Part 2: Xenon-arc lamps [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]IEC 60085 Electrical insulation - Thermal evaluation and designation[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]IEC 60216 Electrical insulating materials - Properties of thermal endurance[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]IEC 60695-2-10 Fire hazard testing - Part 2-10: Glowing/hot-wire based test methods - Glow-wire apparatus and common test procedure[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]IEC 60695-2-11 Fire hazard testing - Part 2-11: Glowing/hot-wire based test methods - Glow-wire flammability test method for end-products[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]BS EN 61439-1:2011 - Low-voltage switchgear and controlgear assemblies Part 1: General rules[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]BS EN 61439-3:2012[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt], Incorporating corrigendum September 2013 - Low-voltage switchgear and[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]controlgear assemblies Part 3: Distribution boards intended to be operated by ordinary persons (DBO)[/SIZE]
That's it for now.
[SIZE=10pt]controlgear assemblies. Part 3: Distribution boards intended to be operated by ordinary persons (DBO)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]8 Constructional requirements[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]This clause of Part 1 applies except as follows.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]8.2.1 Protection against mechanical impact[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Replacement:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The DBO shall comply with the following IK codes according to IEC 62262[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]– IK 05 for a DBO for indoor use,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]– IK 07 for a DBO for outdoor use.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Compliance shall be verified according to 10.2.6.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]NOTE In the USA, no IK code is required as the requirements applicable to a “type” designation (see Note 1 in[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]8.2.2 of IEC 61439-1:2011) cover this consideration.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]10.2.3.2 Verification of resistance of insulating materials to abnormal heat and fire due[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]to internal electric effects[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The last paragraph of Part 1 does not apply.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Addition:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]NOTE 850 °C does not apply to accessible parts of the enclosure after mounting in hollow walls e.g. covers,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Doors.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Standards referenced.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]If there are any missed please ask & I can get their titles.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ISO 178 Plastics - Determination of flexural properties[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ISO 179 Plastics - Determination of Charpy impact properties[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ISO 2409 Paints and varnishes - Cross-cut test[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ISO 4892-2 Plastics - Methods of exposure to laboratory light sources - Part 2: Xenon-arc lamps [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]IEC 60085 Electrical insulation - Thermal evaluation and designation[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]IEC 60216 Electrical insulating materials - Properties of thermal endurance[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]IEC 60695-2-10 Fire hazard testing - Part 2-10: Glowing/hot-wire based test methods - Glow-wire apparatus and common test procedure[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]IEC 60695-2-11 Fire hazard testing - Part 2-11: Glowing/hot-wire based test methods - Glow-wire flammability test method for end-products[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]BS EN 61439-1:2011 - Low-voltage switchgear and controlgear assemblies Part 1: General rules[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]BS EN 61439-3:2012[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt], Incorporating corrigendum September 2013 - Low-voltage switchgear and[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]controlgear assemblies Part 3: Distribution boards intended to be operated by ordinary persons (DBO)[/SIZE]
That's it for now.
Maybe my reading isn't so good these days, but, I can't see where a consumer unit is mentioned.
A variation on :-
I was born in a garage ...does that make me a car ?
Or:-
Years ago a heavily pregnant friend visited from Wales .... went into labour ...son born here in B,ham . I think the upshot of that happening was that their son is not Welsh , but I'm not sure TBH .
Also have no idea what bearing this has on this thread. :C
Did the esteemed Steptoe not have this dilemma a while back ?
Well,, we were told that just because our daughter was born in Britian (North Wales to be more accurate) that she wouldn't automatically be a British citizen... (Wife is Irish)
I think Steps' dillema is still on its way
I think Steps' dillema is still on its way
Well first reply is in from the Nexus (BG) groupOk I will.
In fact I have just emailed a couple so will let you know what they say.................after they stop laughing
"at this stage the regulations are still in draft form and as such are not publically available, until they are published we can not comment on them or how they may affect our product range."
Just to make sure i called the tech dept and got the same reply.
Noz, your daughter could claim either British or Irish nationality, the problem arises with their children and where they are born. My problem is more to do with nation and not nationality. England is a nation, but not a nationality, now we have the issue that I have to appeal to have my daughter christened in norn iron as she is not a born norn iron citizen, it's a nationality as well as a nation. It very ******* complicated! Wales, on the other hand, is both a principality as well as a nationality, but, not necessarily a nation, :shakehead Example, I have 3 passports at present, I used to have 4,!!!!
Long story, but perfectly legal,
I had an Irish one, a British one, a United Kingdom one, and a British Isles one. Now, that is one funked up system......
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