Ceiling Rose To Downlights

[joneskarl1976]

Evening All

be gentle, first time posting!!

I'm looking to install 5 Downlights in the Kitchen (Fireguard LED7), I currently have a rose ceiling light.

Could you let me know if the wiring is correct?

1. Will use 1.5 twin and earth
2. The 2 live wires on the rose (in the middle of the rose) will be connected to a terminal (does this terminal then become redundant ?)
3. The switch live will be connected to a terminal (this will become the live)
4. The neutral wires will be connected to a terminal (this will be the neutral)
5. All earths will be connected to a terminal (this will be the earth)

The downlights have a loop in loop out

Is it then link the wires together on a circuit, I’m going to use wago connectors/wago junction box

I.e. Live, neutral and earth into the downlight then the live, neutral and earth out of downlight into a 3 separate connectors and so on until i come to the last one which will just have a live, neutral and earth going in.

Regards

Karl

 

[ProDave]

That's basically it.

But DON'T use 1.5mm, use 1.0mm instead.  The vast majority of downlighters have such rubbish terminals that it's a struggle to get two 1mm cables in, and nigh on impossible to get two 1.5's

The two lives from the centre of the rose are NOT redundant. They are the permanent live and they still need to be connected to each other.

Your junction box either needs to remain accessible, or if not use maintenance free terminals (it sounds like that is what you have in mind)

 

[batty]

And don't forget to notify council as you have altered kitchen wiring.

 

[joneskarl1976]

Dave

Thanks for that

just for clarification, the two permanent lives will be connected together, but am I correct in saying that they will not be connected to the downlights, as the switch live will be used in the circuit (that’s the only slight thing I can't get my head around at the minute)

The junction boxes will be accessible via downlight cut outs in the ceiling (just pop them into the ceiling)

Once again thanks for your fast response

Regards

Karl

 

[ProDave]

Yes, you are just replicating the same circuit as what is there, with in effect the downlighters connected to the present flex.

If there's ANY doubt, label each wire now before you disconnect anything, and draw a diagram of how it's connected now, so you can always get back to that.

 

[alpha spark]

As batty says your not in Scotland according to your location so part p applies

 

[Evans Electric]

Follow Dave's instruction and you'll be fine Karl.

Just raising a point here .

If Joneskarl is a DIYer and not a professional sparks charging for his services does he come under Part P of the Building Regs or not ?   If he contacts his Local Building Control and says  I put some lights in my kitchen , would they care , do they have the manpower to take any notice of it ....do they give a shytte ???

Just stirring it here :Stir:     

 

[m4tty]

Just don't use the ceiling rose as a junction box like many a kitchen fitter does ffs lol

 

[Sidewinder]

Yes Deke,

The work is covered by Part P, it is up to the home owner whether they comply or not though, their house if they want to do the work "illegally" then that is up to them.

Same as it is the home owner who "cops" it in the event of a spark not notifying...

To comply then the work must be notified in advance to LABC, the fee paid, and then it is up to LABC what they do.

If you can self-notify,by means of a scam, then this can be done retrospectively.

Just promoting healthy debate....

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Follow Dave's instruction and you'll be fine Karl.

Just raising a point here .

If Joneskarl is a DIYer and not a professional sparks charging for his services does he come under Part P of the Building Regs or not ?   If he contacts his Local Building Control and says  I put some lights in my kitchen , would they care , do they have the manpower to take any notice of it ....do they give a shytte ???

Just stirring it here :Stir:     

Well... if

Just stirring it here :Stir:    

......Why is it that "professional" electricians do not know who is responsible for what with regulations that have been in force for over half a decade?

Karl..

The electrical connections bit has been covered...

But also as has been mentioned this work is within the scope of Part-P building regualtions...

Theoretically the homeowner is liable for up to a £5000 fine for non-compliance...

{I don't recall actually hearing of anyone actually been prosecuted but... its your call}

For your reference...

http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/public/leaflets/PartP-Web-Oct2012-1.pdf

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_AD_P_2010.pdf

 

[steptoe]

It only needs to be notified on completion,

So, if you dont actually get round to fitting the 'last' light yet you dont need to notify it until you actually 'complete' the job

 

[ProDave]

It only needs to be notified on completion, So, if you dont actually get round to fitting the 'last' light yet you dont need to notify it until you actually 'complete' the job

You've just told every DIYer to go ahead and rewire their whole house. Just as long as they never quite finish the rewire, they don't have to notify it. :coat

 

[steptoe]

Dave, people are doing it all the time, then ringing up a spark for a completion certificate,

whether they are told to do it or not on an internet forum will make absolutely no difference to someone that is going to do it anyway.

my own house hasnt been notified yet, (started over 2 years ago), doubt it will be finished by the end of next year either, complete re-wire with supplies to outside sockets[remote] and a shed.

 

[Steve3948]

I know a window cleaner, he said he had rewired his complete house, when i mentioned Part P, he said what's that, when I explained he replied its my house I paid for it, nobody helped me pay for it, and what I do to it is up to me, I'm not selling it and if I do then whoever wants to buy it can have it rewired again if they are not happy with what I've done,   uhmmmm OK then  headbang

 

[alpha spark]

Too many people like that Steve just been to a house few weeks ago this woman's dad owned the house previously died and she got the house put all new oak flooring down re plastered all walls then calls me to change some accessories and replace outside lighting and few other bits any way when replacing accessories find he'd used 1.5 mm t/e for spurs on ring main most sockets had 4 cables in them out side lighting metal fittings he'd wired in 2 core flex. When I showed her and I said I wouldn't touch any of it without major upheaval she burst into tears

But my dad did all this it can't be wrong

I said I needed to do a EICR to reveal what state the installation was in and if any could be salvaged.

Not heard ought yet she's probably got some one down the pub to do it

Just shows nobody cares about part p or that they are unaware same as this new electrical register that's out I honestly can't see this making much difference TBH

 

[Evans Electric]

Thats the sort of point this "professional" was bringing to the fore , Alpha.

Here,s most of us lot  jumping through hoops , forming pyramids and frightening the children , to appease the great and the good and fund  the industry leading lights , the empire builders, yet non "professionals"  just continue to do as they want and the controlling bodies do begger all about .  

Two kitchen /bathroom fitting firms I know of , always busy,busy, just totaly ignore the requirements of Part Pee .

 

[kerching]

Thats the sort of point this "professional" was bringing to the fore , Alpha.

Here,s most of us lot  jumping through hoops , forming pyramids and frightening the children , to appease the great and the good and fund  the industry leading lights , the empire builders, yet non "professionals"  just continue to do as they want and the controlling bodies do begger all about .  

Two kitchen /bathroom fitting firms I know of , always busy,busy, just totaly ignore the requirements of Part Pee .

...and not forgetting that some of our 'subs' to the scams go towards funding the likes of Suzy Perry [nice to look at and think about ] , Quentin Wilson et al spouting out drivel [i only assume this as I was not going to waste the effort and turn up!] at the 'meetings of the great and the good'         or for that matter some numpties quoting/answering ficticious questions from the help line!!    FFS Burger me, but some of the questions should never have been asked in the first place, never mind 're-quoted' in front of others.

I suppose the new free software will be worth it [mind you it is going to cost me an iPad!!!!]......when it eventually decides to materialise.....................rant momentarily subsides.............. :coat

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

It only needs to be notified on completion, So, if you don't actually get round to fitting the 'last' light yet you dont need to notify it until you actually 'complete' the job

If you are a competent person undertaking the work, you notify once complete...

But par 1.24 pg 11 App Doc P suggests your advice is incorrect...  

{assuming that Karl is a DIY not qualified to do BS7671 certs, by his question I assume not}

DIY'ers not qualified to complete BS7671 certs must notify LABC before work commences...

But then as you imply...

People look on the internet for any answers they like...

someone will give them the answer they like..

and then they will go ahead and do what they want anyway..

Possibly this is not helped by forums full of alleged competent persons encouraging

DIY'ers to ignore any legal obligations.

opcorn

 

[Evans Electric]

D

 

[m4tty]

D

DD