Home Electrics Diy Competence -Vs- Need Qualified Electrician.

[Doc Hudson]

Every so often this old question crops up typically when a DIY new member asks a question then at some point says something that makes others question their abilities to do a safe functional job. Generally ending up with the thread going a bit off topic and several pages of debate about the merits or not of DIY electrical work. I just thought we could have a thread where anyone interested can chew the meat and discuss the pro's con's, for's and against's of DIY electrical work in here rather then the regular stretching of other members threads. Heres a few thoughts to kick things off;

Should all home DIY electrical work be banned and why?

Is it safe for DIY'ers to do replacement accessories, and/or sections of cable providing they do like for like?

The impression given off some threads is that every electrical accident will be fatal, therefore must be avoided at all costs, but have you ever had an electric shock, (presumably it wasn't fatal), Does anyone know what percentage of shocks actually are fatal?

Is it possible to do a domestic addition / alteration safely without test gear?

Is it only DIY'ers who do dangerous electrical work?

Should all tradesmen offering electrical work  be legally obliged to have certain qualifications and insurance. e.g. DIY home handyman, 'man with a van' wide range of trades and services offered but not many qualifications?

Should it be illegal to advertise electrical services unless you have certain qualifications and insurance, (much the same as advertising NICEIC membership illegally)?

Discuss.

Doc H.

 

[Lurch]

I have never said (or at least I don't think I have) all DIY work should be banned. I also do not believe that all dodgy electrical installations are bad because they cause lethal electrocution risks. Some are just generally terrible and will cause problems in other areas (fire risk from poor terminations/badly positioned halogen downlighters and the like). You can do a safe and proper job without testing, but this would be more difficult for an inexperienced DIYer.

Amendment 3 has come about because "qualified" electricians are incompetent, and part p was brought about to combat poor electrical work, which has just flooded the market with limp wristed keen DIYers.

My main issue with DIY is when someone who clearly has no idea what they are doing insists on carrying on regardless.

I think we have missed the opportunity to regulate and legislate as the electrical industry is now a complete mess.

 

[misssweden]

From someone who's looking at the industry from the outside (sort of anyway), I think that everyone who offers electrical services should have proper qualifications and insurance. And by proper I don't mean 5 week Mickey Mouse courses. The sad thing is that DIY'ers who realise that the work they want done is over their head and call in a professional could end up getting someone in who could do a worse job of it than they would maybe have done themselves.

My point is that the general public do not realise the difference in qualifications and experience that an electrician can have and just put their faith in a shiney NICEIC sticker.

 

[Murdoch]

Every so often this old questions crops up typically when a DIY new member asks a question then at some point says something that makes others question their abilities to do a safe functional job. Generally ending up with the thread going a bit off topic and several pages of debate about the merits or not of DIY electrical work. I just thought we could have a thread where anyone interested can chew the meat and discuss the pro's con's, for's and against's of DIY electrical work in here rather then the regular stretching of other members threads. Heres a few thoughts to kick things off;

Should all home DIY electrical work be banned and why? - NO

Is it safe for DIY'ers to do replacement accessories, and/or sections of cable providing they do like for like? - accessories yes - cables would depend on the circumstances

The impression given off some threads is that every electrical accident will be fatal, therefore must be avoided at all costs, but have you ever had an electric shock, (presumably it wasn't fatal), Does anyone know what percentage of shocks actually are fatal? - NO

Is it possible to do a domestic addition / alteration safely without test gear? - NO - how would the DIYer know its safe before they started making changes?

Is it only DIY'ers who do dangerous electrical work? - Definitely not, barry the bathroom fitter, Kevin the kitchen fitter and dave the builder spring to mind

Should all tradesmen offering electrical work  be legally obliged to have certain qualifications and insurance. e.g. DIY home handyman, 'man with a van' wide range of trades and services offered but not many qualifications? YES

Should it be illegal to advertise electrical services unless you have certain qualifications and insurance, (much the same as advertising NICEIC membership illegally)? In the ideal world but difficult to enforce

Discuss.

Doc H.

My answers above but in addition my question is "why do certain members on here dish out step by step guides to any Tom, Dick or Harry"?

 

[ProDave]

This is indeed a very emotive subject.

My take is DIY SHOULD be allowed, the same as DIY gas work IS allowed (that's another can of worms)

I come from an industrial / scientific background, so I used to work with a lot of very clever, very skilled people, but few of them actually officially trained as electricians. But just about all of them did their own wiring and asked for advice when they needed it, and from what I saw, they generally all did a good job.  I know one of those who rewired his entire house before part P came along. He later had an extension built and he was really pissed off that he had to employ an electrician to wire the extension just because of part P.

We all see rubbish electrical work in our daily travels, so yes some DIYers haven't got a clue. BUT I also see rubbish work done by so called professional electricians, the solar PV install I saw yesterday was just one example done by an MCS registered company supposedly using a proper electrician.

This problem will never be "solved" there will always be good and bad work done. I think we have proved beyond doubt that competent person schemes do NOT ensure all work done by their members is to a good standard.

So my take is give advice but give GOOD advice.

 

[Marvo]

You're covering two very different areas here which I'd look at as two different issues., A DIY'er is working on his own home whereas people advertising or a tradesman without quals is working in a customers house for profit and deliberately misleading the customer.

I don't have a problem with DIY, it's something that makes men, well it makes them men. It's programmed into us since the beginning of time to build homes and improve them same way it's programmed into women to nag us to do it.

Chancers masquerading as tradesmen are a different ball-game, I've got no time for them. At best they're con-men at worst they're dangerous criminals. .

 

[Doc Hudson]

My answers above but in addition my question is "why do certain members on here dish out step by step guides to any Tom, Dick or Harry"?

The answer to that is probably because if they are asking on a forum for some help there is a 99.9% chance they are still going to do the work anyway. Or they have already done the work and they are trying to check something that they weren't sure of when they did it. Either way if Tom Dick or Harry is not going to get advice here they will probably just go to another forum until they find the answer. If we don't offer polite advice to people asking questions, eventually no one else will come and ask so the forum stagnates. I am not saying the advice is to always tell someone how to do a job, some work is more hazardous than other work, but not all work is. In an ideal world it would be great if every electrician was full qualified, competent and did a good job so that all customers could have confidence in what they get for their money and that no one ever attempted DIY of any sort, professional tradesmen were employed for all tasks in the home and on the car. But reality is that some people will always attempt a certain level of DIY work. Should we just refuse to offer any help at all, when what they are asking to do is still actually legal for them do.  

Doc H.

 

[Doc Hudson]

You're covering two very different areas here which I'd look at as two different issues., A DIY'er is working on his own home whereas people advertising or a tradesman without quals is working in a customers house for profit and deliberately misleading the customer.

I don't have a problem with DIY, it's something that makes men, well it makes them men. It's programmed into us since the beginning of time to build homes and improve them same way it's programmed into women to nag us to do it.

Chancers masquerading as tradesmen are a different ball-game, I've got no time for them. At best they're con-men at worst they're dangerous criminals. .

This is a very good point and highlights the tricky bit of giving advice on a forum. but even then some people could have different guidance for the same problem just because of whose doing it. How about a hypothetical situation to think about: Some minor alterations to a lighting circuit with the typical mess up with switched lives and two way switching and loop wires at fitting, including an extractor fan switched from the light supply in a downstairs toilet. None of it Part P notifiable, assume RCD's & MCB's appropriate to the circuit are already present.

First person, a DIY homeowner doing the work in his own house.

Second person, a helpful neighbor or family relative doing the work free of charge to help someone out who's living alone on low income. 

Third person, a DIY unqualified home handyman charging to do the work.

Fourth person, a Landlord doing the work in one of his rented properties before new tenants come in.

All four could come onto the forum asking exactly the same question, should the forum help all of them, none of them, some of them or not?

Doc H.

 

[Lurch]

I come from an industrial / scientific background, so I used to work with a lot of very clever, very skilled people, but few of them actually officially trained as electricians. But just about all of them did their own wiring and asked for advice when they needed it, and from what I saw, they generally all did a good job.  I know one of those who rewired his entire house before part P came along. He later had an extension built and he was really pissed off that he had to employ an electrician to wire the extension just because of part P.

I have also been to houses wired by very skilled engineers. Some have been borderline deathtraps, others have been perfectly safe from an electrical POV but completely wrong from a BS7671 POV.

All four could come onto the forum asking exactly the same question, should the forum help all of them, none of them, some of them or not?

This is where it is sometimes easier to just say no. I would probably dish out advice dependant on why they are asking and what attitude they have. Some users will completely ignore anything you tell them and will insist on telling us that they know better, it doesn't matter how many times they say it or why they are here, if they do not seem competent then I will generally not offer advice. Some users may not be competent but if they know this then I would happily tell them anything they want to know if I felt that they weren't going to leave here and blindly wire things in a poor fashion.

Some people, either DIYers or so called electricians, are just incapable of doing a decent job no matter what advice they are given.

The answer to that is probably because if they are asking on a forum for some help there is a 99.9% chance they are still going to do the work anyway. Or they have already done the work and they are trying to check something that they weren't sure of when they did it. .

The problem is that some people will keep going until they get the answer they want and will ignore perfectly good advice.

 

[Essex1]

Banned is the wrong terminology. It should be the case that any electrical work should be certified as safe for continued use. Forget Part P. It has nothing to do with it. If you make an alteration to a circuit in any way it should be certified and have on there the name of the person doing the work, testing the work and designing the works as an EIC does. In effect this would prevent 99% of DIYer from carrying out the work due to the lack of test equipment. Being competent (electrically) is not simply about your ability to do the work but also having the correct tools to do the job. Test equipment being the most important.

Is it safe for a DIYer to change accessories like for like. No is the simple answer. Cross polarity is a real issue when DIY Dave gets involved. Again a full test of the altered circuit would highlight this before being handed back to the user.

The comment about is every electrical shock fatal and because it is not is a reason not to be all over the top about it is a silly one. We wear seat belts as enforced by law not because of the likely hood of a crash. There are millions of unhindered journeys everyday. But at the risk of sometimes, when it does go wrong, it goes wrong very badly. It does not matter how many people get an electric shock and survive. As Lurch said there is also the issue of fire.

Of course it is possible to do. But a 'competent' person would not use this installation or hand it over to be used without first testing to ensure it is safe. This is the magic word - competent. A competent electrician has ALL the tools and equipment to do the job. Not just what they have in the shed.

Of course not only DIYers do dangerous work. Many fully qualified people do. Some of the older sparks that I was around during my apprentiship carried out terrible works and could not care less about the trade. You will never stop bad workmanship but by certifying everything you have a clear paper trail back to the person carrying out that poor work.

Yes, anyone wishing to carry out any job for profit should have the correct qualifications and insurances required to carry out that task. Me personally would not accept anything less than an 'electrician' graded by the JIB. Not because I am a fan of the JIB but I feel there grading requirements are where we need to be in the industry. Would put a stop to 5ww overnight. I also believe a scene similar to Gas safe is required so everyone is registered.

No it should not be illegal to advertise. It would be a pointless law. I also believe that it is not illegal to advertise NICEIC membership. But it is illegal to use their logo without permission as it is any other trademarked brand.

 

[Essex1]

You're covering two very different areas here which I'd look at as two different issues., A DIY'er is working on his own home whereas people advertising or a tradesman without quals is working in a customers house for profit and deliberately misleading the customer.

I don't have a problem with DIY, it's something that makes men, well it makes them men. It's programmed into us since the beginning of time to build homes and improve them same way it's programmed into women to nag us to do it.

Chancers masquerading as tradesmen are a different ball-game, I've got no time for them. At best they're con-men at worst they're dangerous criminals. .

Right, so the DIYer who does something wrong. Causes a fire. And that fire kills one of the firemen attending or another building user? Is it OK because, well, he was being a man? Charging for a service has nothing to do with it when someone's safety is involved and if when said person's safety is compromised and that person is expecting the support of the emergency services to assist them. Probably putting their lives in danger if a fire is evolved also.

I know we are talking extremes but not impossible to consider is it? Encouraging electrical work without the full set of tools and equipment to ensure as far as is reasonably practical that it is safe is wrong. In any form.

 

[Marvo]

This is a very good point and highlights the tricky bit of giving advice on a forum. but even then some people could have different guidance for the same problem just because of whose doing it. How about a hypothetical situation to think about: Some minor alterations to a lighting circuit with the typical mess up with switched lives and two way switching and loop wires at fitting, including an extractor fan switched from the light supply in a downstairs toilet. None of it Part P notifiable, assume RCD's & MCB's appropriate to the circuit are already present.

First person, a DIY homeowner doing the work in his own house.

Second person, a helpful neighbor or family relative doing the work free of charge to help someone out who's living alone on low income. 

Third person, a DIY unqualified home handyman charging to do the work.

Fourth person, a Landlord doing the work in one of his rented properties before new tenants come in.

All four could come onto the forum asking exactly the same question, should the forum help all of them, none of them, some of them or not?

Doc H.

I don't have a black and white line apart from the differentiating between unqualified tradesmen / professional chancers and genuine DIY'ers working in their own home although I'd probably extend that to the homes of their immediate families. For the example you've given, unless they displayed a thorough understanding of basic electrics I'd probably limit advice to replacements of skts, switches and light fittings.

Right, so the DIYer who does something wrong. Causes a fire. And that fire kills one of the firemen attending or another building user? Is it OK because, well, he was being a man? Charging for a service has nothing to do with it when someone's safety is involved and if when said person's safety is compromised and that person is expecting the support of the emergency services to assist them. Probably putting their lives in danger if a fire is evolved also.

I know we are talking extremes but not impossible to consider is it? Encouraging electrical work without the full set of tools and equipment to ensure as far as is reasonably practical that it is safe is wrong. In any form.

Oh the drama. That poor fireman, what about his family and who's going to feed his dog?

Do you even think before you type? Charging for a service has a lot to do with it. Firstly it's misleading some poor customer but secondly, and more importantly, a chancer/cowboy on a job where they're out of their depth is motivated by the money so far more likely to carry on regardless with a completely unsafe result than some guy in his own house who's motivated by wanting to improve his lot in life. Chancers don't ever turn around part way through a job and say that they think they're out of their depth, is there an electrician on the forum that's local to them to assist please.

Like I said a lot of it with DIY'ers depends on the individual and whether he/she comes across as having assessed and mitigated the risks as well as the level of ability being portrayed by the kind of questions being asked. Even then sometimes it's the questions they're not asking that make me decide not to assist.

The line is different for everyone but wherever it lies for you personally I'd suggest you approach it the same way you approach anything electrical, look at the risks of giving the guy advice and assess if they can be managed by asking a few probing questions before encouraging him by giving him his answers. It's you decision to either help or walk away or advise him based on evidence from his posts that you think he's doing something unsafe. This is different than just telling him he's a DIY'er therefore he's going to start a fire because because although he may not have the qualifications he may still be competent and able to complete the work safely with some helpful pointers to set him in the right direction.

I can't type any more, that poor fireman is still playing on my mind.

 

[Essex1]

great post.

 

[NozSpark]

TBH I don't have a problem with competent DIYers,,, it's the incompetent ones that I don't like....like the ones who even mess up replacing a light fitting... I.e. leaving the earths disconnected as they don't do anything

 

[Essex1]

TBH I don't have a problem with competent DIYers,,, it's the incompetent ones that I don't like....like the ones who even mess up replacing a light fitting... I.e. leaving the earths disconnected as they don't do anything

Define competent.

 

[steptoe]

anyone charging for a professional service or advertising themselves as such should be licenced,

as said, we missed a great opportunity and instead partP was introduced and the scams made more money,

so, there is no way they are going to let that go easily.

we must be about the only country in the civilised [and probably uncivilised] world that does not have a licencing system for electricians,

and before anyone says it, NO, the jib is nothing like one, its just a scam thats a bit older than the rest, I have persoanl experience of them firstly threatening me with empty words, and then more recently trying to extort money from me by reneging on their earlier threats and promising me everything I could ever wish for,  :slap

 

[Essex1]

The only thing good about the JIB is there grading system.

 

[jimmybobbob]

Is this post still ongoing or are we all exhausted.... (can anyone have they're 5 quids worth)

 

[Lurch]

Might as well weigh in with something, the subject will never be concluded or closed.

 

[jimmybobbob]

Ok when I've prepared my speech I'll get it typed up....tbc