Home Electrics Diy Competence -Vs- Need Qualified Electrician.

[Doc Hudson]

Is this post still ongoing or are we all exhausted.... (can anyone have they're 5 quids worth)

The key point of this thread is to provide somewhere for people to debate / discuss / rant / moan or whatever about DIY -vs- Qualified and competent related issues rather than taking another thread too much off topic, as has often happened in the past.  So by all means add your thoughts for others to read and or comment on as they feel.

Doc H

 

[pewter]

We need

electrical police, and secret electrical police, secret secret police to police them.

There should also be Plumbing police, plastering police, brick laying police, painting police. Secret versions and secret secret versions.

We would need a regional team to police the secret secret police.

I think we need more courts and judges to prosicute the offenders of electrical crime.

More staff needed to process all the fines and payments.

More prisons to lock up the persistant offenders

If we all as proffesionals payed up extra money to fund all this, say an extra £1-2000 a year.

perhaps corporal punishment for offenders......

That might stop the average home owner trying to save money by doing some DIY.

 

[thebight]

Possibly a little bit off topic, but the subject of incompetent electrician's has raised its head so I'll throw this in the mix.

I agree that a better system to police electrical tradesmen should be in place, and the posts also calling for certain stipulations such as insurances etc. But I'm strongly of the view that a lot of the onus has to be put on home-owners. If a home-owner pulls in Bodgit Barry to do a cheap rewire, then the home-owner (and Bodgit Barry) should be held accountable for that.

I've just spent a fair whack extending the house. Did I open the yellow pages and say "he'll do"? Did I nick, and anybody that does that deserves to be stung. In this day and age there's no excuse for not being able to find a reputable tradesman - word of mouth, posting on a forum like this, review sites, there's no excuse - it's not the 1950's any longer. It takes two to tango, and to blame Bodgit Barry alone for ruining the trade is incorrect, as the home owner will either knowingly be employing him for his cheaper rates, or oblivious to the rules in which case he deserves to be stung. It's funny, my brother needed a new fence as his old one blew down this winter. His family gave him three recommendations (all people we know first hand, and know their high standards of work). He opted (for one reason or another) to pick a local name out of the Yellow Pages instead. His new fence cost him twice as much as my recommendations, and has only lasted two weeks. He now has the headache of chasing this fencer to get it sorted.

 

[Essex1]

Possibly a little bit off topic, but the subject of incompetent electrician's has raised its head so I'll throw this in the mix.

I agree that a better system to police electrical tradesmen should be in place, and the posts also calling for certain stipulations such as insurances etc. But I'm strongly of the view that a lot of the onus has to be put on home-owners. If a home-owner pulls in Bodgit Barry to do a cheap rewire, then the home-owner (and Bodgit Barry) should be held accountable for that.

I've just spent a fair whack extending the house. Did I open the yellow pages and say "he'll do"? Did I nick, and anybody that does that deserves to be stung. In this day and age there's no excuse for not being able to find a reputable tradesman - word of mouth, posting on a forum like this, review sites, there's no excuse - it's not the 1950's any longer. It takes two to tango, and to blame Bodgit Barry alone for ruining the trade is incorrect, as the home owner will either knowingly be employing him for his cheaper rates, or oblivious to the rules in which case he deserves to be stung. It's funny, my brother needed a new fence as his old one blew down this winter. His family gave him three recommendations (all people we know first hand, and know their high standards of work). He opted (for one reason or another) to pick a local name out of the Yellow Pages instead. His new fence cost him twice as much as my recommendations, and has only lasted two weeks. He now has the headache of chasing this fencer to get it sorted.

Hmmmm. I am not sure if I agree with you here.

There are many many vulnerable people out there that have not the slightest clue on what makes a good tradesman. Take vehicle repairs. We have a few teams dotted about the country. What do I do. Go and survey all areas and hold interviews? No. I need to trust that people are who they say they are and that they have the qualifications and experience that they have advertised. I would like to think that within the industry I work in we have a good reputation for both standards and price. Now take my prices and put them in the domestic market and it just will not work. You cannot blame Mrs X down the road for looking around for cheaper alternatives.

You contradict yourself in your post because the guy with the fence got someone out the Yellow Pages for twice the price for the same job. There must have been a reason why he chose not to use the recommendations you suggested. Maybe someone else told him to stay well clear. Someone he trusted more. Who knows.

One thing is for sure. Quality and service is in no way whatsoever linked to the price you pay.

 

[thebight]

"The guy" is my brother, as I said. He's actually admitted the reason he chose this company is because they could do the work sooner and was willing to pay more for that.

As for vulnerable, I agree to that extent, but there's not many that can't fall on someone to help them decide. My gran has alzheimers and couldn't make decisions like this, but she has extended family that can help her. I don't think there'll be many people without a support network.

As for your vehicle repairs - no, I don't think you would go to that extent to make sure, but I also don't think you'd phone up Mike the Mechanic and have it done in a back street like so many seem to choose with electrics. If you buy anything, the first thing you do (well I do at least) is check for reviews to make sure the product is up to scratch. Why wouldn't you do likewise with a tradesman? Where is the difference?

 

[binky]

those available at short notice.......

Under Part P / building regs, home owners can be fined up to £5k for not registering works / using suitably registered trades - I've never seen a case of this.

As stated above, no-one should offer a service unless fully trained. I can decide to be a plumber tomorrow and go strangle pipes, a rediculous situation. I don't actually understand how this is viable under Trading Standrds.To me this is the major failure of Part P and all the registration schemes in place for any trade. Given this scenario, it would help improve customer faith in tradesmen, and they may appreciate that they will get a good job, and be ore willing to pay for works.

As for Bob from down the pub - you'll never stop that!

Basically shemes or not, it's mostly about ownership of the work. When we issue certs etc etc we are declaring ownership of the work. In theory that drives standards up.

 

[Lurch]

It's all relative though, I've notified nothing and that bears no relation to the standard of my work. On the flip side I have rectified works done by "approved electricians" who have notified terrible/incorrect/dangerous works.

 

[Essex1]

You just need to look at the stats to understand that Part P has been a failure.  They are bringing NC CUs in for Christ's sake due to electrical fires going up.

 

[pewter]

I dont understand why so many people think Part-P is a failure.

Before Part-P nearly everyone used to have a go at electrical work.

Now i hear a lot of builders/plumbers/painters say 'i dont touch electrics cos of part-P'

There are loads that dont care still, but i think it has made it a little bit better.

Yes i agree we should have a special license to do electrical work.

 

[ProDave]

At the risk of repeating myself we know there's no...... in Scotland.

I don't see any evidence that Scot's houses are burning down or Scot's are killing themselves by electricity any more or less so than those in England and Wales.

If someone could show me some statistics that show electrical safety in England and Wales is much better than Scotland and NI, then I might agree part  P is a success. 

 

[binky]

Part P has defo changed things, but it's not always obviuos how much. I suspect any increase in CU fires is down to cheap crap CUs rather than the installers

 

[Essex1]

Part P has defo changed things, but it's not always obviuos how much. I suspect any increase in CU fires is down to cheap crap CUs rather than the installers

All CUs should be manufactured to British Standards. I am sure there are some examples of poor standards of materials but I do think if they are fitted correctly then there should be no issue. My opinion it is down to poor workmanship. If you install a crap CU and walk away knowing the terminals did not tighten up quite right then it is the installers fault IMO.

For me all Part P has done is make a lot of silly people belive they can go on a Part P Electrical Course and become 'qualified' or 'competent'.

 

[Lurch]

I dont understand why so many people think Part-P is a failure.

Before Part-P nearly everyone used to have a go at electrical work.

Now i hear a lot of builders/plumbers/painters say 'i dont touch electrics cos of part-P'

There are loads that dont care still, but i think it has made it a little bit better.

Most of those that used to have a go at electrics before still will, there are only a few that will say they won't because of part p. The few that don't any more are an extremely small percentage.

To counter that there are now more unskilled have a go electricians who are part p compliant but do not have the skill, knowledge or experience to do a proper job. So part p has sort of worked but it has had the negative side effect of making the electrical trade largely unskilled and most qualified electricians are now only qualified because they managed to be guided through an exam.

I suspect any increase in CU fires is down to cheap crap CUs rather than the installers

To some extent that might be true but for the most part it is all the "part p registered DIYers".

 

[Manator]

I have been very interested in the debate about consumer units, taking part in the discussions over on the IET forums as well as some others. I have read the CIBSE guide and the white paper released by BEAMA.

What I wanted people to do was to challenge the thinking behind the final outcome. The main cause of electrical fires within enclosures has from the start been identified as poor workmanship. In my view by the actions they have taken they appear to accept that poor workmanship, and to an extent condone it (as a matter of fact) . If you read the documents properly it mentions bad workmanship as the primary cause, and yet now relies on good workmanship to make sure that the installation is carried out to maintain a satisfactory standard.

In my opinion if you find the cause of a problem you remedy that problem. Properly installed plastic consumer units do not pose a problem and the fitting of them could be legitimate. At the moment only domestic installations have to comply, that again informs myself that the problem they have identified comes from one sector of the electrical industry.

I have directly challenged this thinking and as yet not received any feedback, I can only assume they are too embarrassed to get into the debate in public.

 

[Lurch]

I can only assume they are too embarrassed to get into the debate in public.

I've said pretty much exactly this quite a few times, everyone knows part p is a failure but no-one will admit it. Many opportunities have been missed to quietly sideline it, or do some major revising of the standard industry training and requirements to try and get it back on track. The stubbornness of the people making the decisions is not doing anyone any good, it is having the opposite effect to what part p was meant to achieve.

If you look back there are loads of schemes that have failed and disappeared soon after being released, most of which I can't remember the name of, some of which I do not know what they were about and who ran the schemes which just caused more public confusion. Most homeowners have no idea who should be registered with what and why, so the industry is left to self police effectively, which is what it was doing before, but now there are more people in the industry who are clueless so the self policing doesn't work any more.

We do not need external policing, we need skilled tradesmen in the industry.

 

[Essex1]

I have been very interested in the debate about consumer units, taking part in the discussions over on the IET forums as well as some others. I have read the CIBSE guide and the white paper released by BEAMA.

What I wanted people to do was to challenge the thinking behind the final outcome. The main cause of electrical fires within enclosures has from the start been identified as poor workmanship. In my view by the actions they have taken they appear to accept that poor workmanship, and to an extent condone it (as a matter of fact) . If you read the documents properly it mentions bad workmanship as the primary cause, and yet now relies on good workmanship to make sure that the installation is carried out to maintain a satisfactory standard.

In my opinion if you find the cause of a problem you remedy that problem. Properly installed plastic consumer units do not pose a problem and the fitting of them could be legitimate. At the moment only domestic installations have to comply, that again informs myself that the problem they have identified comes from one sector of the electrical industry.

I have directly challenged this thinking and as yet not received any feedback, I can only assume they are too embarrassed to get into the debate in public.

I think you have made a good point.  Why only domestic boards?  It would not be the race to the bottom that is currently the two tier industry we call electrics is it? 

 

[Andy™]

why only domestic? well part p brought us 5 day wonders who only do domestic and mostly keep away from commercial...

 

[Manator]

What is more amusing is the actual figures for the fires. In 2005 it was around 50 - 70 and in 2014 it was around 400 or more I can get the actual figures if anyone is interested. Funny how part p came out in 2005 which greatly coincides with an alarming increase

 

[Lurch]

What is more amusing is the actual figures for the fires. In 2005 it was around 50 - 70 and in 2014 it was around 400 or more I can get the actual figures if anyone is interested. Funny how part p came out in 2005 which greatly coincides with an alarming increase

But no-one will admit it is because of part p, it is because consumer units are combustible, apparently. The decision makers must know that consumer units only started spontaneously combusting in 2005?

You have too be a complete braindead moron to think part p has been a success IMO. I cannot see how the people responsible for it, and amendment 3, can get away with it. There should be some sort of investigation into shady practices/fraud/deception/....

 

[Murdoch]

Thing is about CU's if you go back far enough the incoming tails had 2 screws each, they didn't have flimsy busbars or flimsy MCB's or RCD's

I think the growth in the failures has more to do with the poor quality products (which allegedly meet the relevant standards) than sub standard installations........