Lighting with no earth - options and 1950's cable sizing help

[Blue Fox]

Hello all,

Been to check out a c/u change today and found the lighting circuit had no earth. Upstairs only has pendant lights with normal white switches except 2 which were the original 1950's switches but downstairs they have 3 lights (1 in kitchen, 1 in living room, 1 in dining room) which require an earth as they are the metal bar with multi lamps on it type. 1 of these would be very very difficult to get an earth to as its below the bathroom which has a tiled floor and the other 2 would be difficult and the customer doesn't want me pulling up the floorbards above and rewiring the lighting circuit. Other than changing these to pendants are there any other obvious solutions without rewiring the circuit?

On the same house a lot of the wiring is the original 1950's stuff. It all tests out ok but can someone please tell me the sizes these cables are liable to be? They are all multi strand type not single core if that helps. Going to need the size for the cert. Also they are not copper cores.

 

[Andy™]

Install all Class II equipment - doesnt always mean pendant, some fancy fittings can be class II

Dont forget for the switches, you will need to use something insulating between backbox and screw, either plastic screws, or plastic backbox etc.

Cable size is probably 3/.029 for lighting

 

[Theorysparky]

Install all Class II equipment - doesnt always mean pendant, some fancy fittings can be class IIDont forget for the switches, you will need to use something insulating between backbox and screw, either plastic screws, or plastic backbox etc.

Cable size is probably 3/.029 for lighting

that covers it in a nutshell !!!!

 

[Evans Electric]

The lighting would be 3/.029 singles if its stranded. . Probably is copper but used to be tinned, doubt if it is aluminium from the fifties. The sockets would be 7/.029 but twin/E I imagine, cooker probably 7/.044. The way I look at things is if they don't want you to run earths or rewire , you can't make them , just put it on the cert.

Deke

 

[batty]

Have a look at the guide I forget what its called. I think it was electric safety council or something. There is one for properties without cpc. Give customer copy of that to read. NICEIC do a label to fit on consumer unit about not putting anything metal up. As others have said you cannot force people to have work done just ensure you mark it down on cert.

Batty

link

http://www.esc.org.uk/pdfs/business-and-community/electrical-industry/BPG1_08.pdf

 

[Andy™]

for no earthing, i have made my own labels for it - nothing fancy, just text on a white label, but it does the job

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

dunno if this helps...

but if you want some other light fittings that are Class 2, this site specialises in them.

http://www.double-insulated-lighting.co.uk/class-2-wall-lighting.htm

I had some quite nice wall lights for a job once off them, customer didn't want any hacking of the walls until next redecorate.. but existing lights were metal & needed earth!!!

 

[green-hornet]

There was a practice of cutting the earth from twin&earth cable in the past.

If this is the case it could be possible to strip the cables back and crimp extra lengths to the earth cable. If no earth is present then you will have to do as suggested and make all lighting class 2.

Remember the older light switch back boxes had plastic lugs for screwing up the face plates, if the backboxes are all metal with no plastic lugs they will also need to be replaced.

A label should be placed on the cu refering to the fact that the cpc for the lighting circuit is not present.

 

[spinlondon]

Don't forget to put them on an RCD.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Hello Spinlondon, welcome to the forum.

Doc H.

 

[batty]

There was a practice of cutting the earth from twin&earth cable in the past.If this is the case it could be possible to strip the cables back and crimp extra lengths to the earth cable. If no earth is present then you will have to do as suggested and make all lighting class 2.

Remember the older light switch back boxes had plastic lugs for screwing up the face plates, if the backboxes are all metal with no plastic lugs they will also need to be replaced.

A label should be placed on the cu refering to the fact that the cpc for the lighting circuit is not present.

Not only in the past, checking a job this week chap had cut all cpc's off at downlights as they where double insulated so had to spend an hour and half re installing them probably took longer than if I had installed them in the first place.

Batty

 

[Evans Electric]

Blokes cutting off earth wires is really annoying , come across it quite often, why do they do that !!!

Is it the same merchant banker who cuts the cables really short behind ,say, a socket, so when you come to replace the front plate life suddenly becomes difficult.

Deke

 

[batty]

Blokes cutting off earth wires is really annoying , come across it quite often, why do they do that !!!Is it the same merchant banker who cuts the cables really short behind ,say, a socket, so when you come to replace the front plate life suddenly becomes difficult.

Deke

Yep same bloke.

 

[green-hornet]

If the earth is not required for the fitting you are installing, there is nothing wrong with sleaving it and leaving a reasonable length, so that future extentions or changes in fittings that require an earth can be accomodated.

Cutting the earth off is just lazy

 

[Blue Fox]

If the earth is not required for the fitting you are installing, there is nothing wrong with sleaving it and leaving a reasonable length, so that future extentions or changes in fittings that require an earth can be accomodated.Cutting the earth off is just lazy

I don't think its even lazy as for me it would take no more trouble to sleeve it than to cut it off right at the sheaving. Its poor workmanship I think. The people who do that sort of thing probably don't sleeve them as they don't use sleeving so they cut them off. Same with the people who make the cables so short you can hardly get the face off the wall, it must be harder fro them to connect the face in the first place so why do they do it? a couple of inches of cable costs nothing, again its poor workmanship and lack of ability. Thats my opinion anyway,

Thanks for all your help though guys.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I don't think its even lazy as for me it would take no more trouble to sleeve it than to cut it off right at the sheaving. Its poor workmanship I think. The people who do that sort of thing probably don't sleeve them as they don't use sleeving so they cut them off. Same with the people who make the cables so short you can hardly get the face off the wall, it must be harder fro them to connect the face in the first place so why do they do it? a couple of inches of cable costs nothing, again its poor workmanship and lack of ability. Thats my opinion anyway,Thanks for all your help though guys.

To true Blue Fox!Applaud SmileyGuiness DrinkGuiness Drink

IMHO those are classic signs of DIY know-nothings!! X(

OR

extremely incompetent qualified persons!

It is not hard at all to do a decent job in the first place. :|

 

[sparky2]

If its 1950 cables then its probably VIR and will test OK untill you disturb the fittings, if the ends have perished the rubber insulation will just fall off and expose the bare copper cables, there could be a 14s (about 2.5mm ) earth wire around on the sockets which would be run separately ( ie not t+e ). The sockets would have been changed from 5a/15a or wylex which were around in the 50s, it sounds as though its needs a rewire, what would happen if the householder fitted a flourecent or a dimmer switch which req an earth ? you might find the lighting cables are in 5/8 conduit and the joists are probably notched out so the existing cables could act as drawires. best of luck - Stuart. Pray

 

[Blue Fox]

Thanks for the reply Stuart.

The cables aren't in rubber insulation, they are PVC. Everthing tests out ok with the meter. The housholder definatly won't have the propery rewired unfortunatly - it would be better rewired. At present he has 4 different small fuse boxes each with rewirable fuses. So in my opinion by fitting a new consumer unit the house is at least going to be safer than it was before, although it would obviously be better with a rewire, I was intending putting something about a rewire being considered on the cert when I do it.

 

[telephoneman]

dont know about you guys but that bloke who cuts the earth off/no sleeving even worse wrong colour sleeving and short cables gets every where..same problem class one fittings no earth = 1 very upset customer..but as i said at least you are still alive!!!!!!!!! to make it worse he was going to have it all done before he redecorated...you know what thought done!!

 

[Andy™]

Just remember if you do see any cut back earths and manage to get enough to earth the fitting.... you will most likely have to go round every light and connect it there....