Nest or Hive

[Addis1988]

I am wanting to install either a Nest or a Hive system to my existing heating. I have never installed either of the systems but just wanting any advice on what is the best system as it would be very handy to control my heating from an app when I am out of the house. I have a pressurised oil fired heating system with an EPH 2 channel time clock controlling the upstairs and downstairs heating seperately aswell as hot water. There is a stat upstairs and one downstairs.

 

[UNG]

Schneider Wiser would be my go to for smart heating controls

 

[Addis1988]

Schneider Wiser would be my go to for smart heating controls

Is that the Drayton wiser one?

 

[UNG]

Is that the Drayton wiser one?

Yes Drayton is a Schneider brand

 

[brummydave]

There are many internet connected heating control systems, I only consider Nest as being truly 'smart'. They each have pros and cons, I have recommended and fitted Nest, Wiser, EvoHome (Honeywell), and Hive. I am aware of Tado, Danfoss, and others who might be more suited to you.

All these systems enable control through an app.

EvoHome and Wiser (and others )can be expanded to have individual radiator control using motorised programmable TRVs.

Nest is smart because it uses sensors to know when someone is home, it learns and then self-adjusts your schedule, and lastly reduces temperatures very gradually to save energy.

I'd be wary of Hive as I believe it's being phased out / unsupported. However, it's a capable product.

Prices vary, as do offers on them. Honeywell Evo is the most expensive but worth it if the system design uses it to it's full potential.

Most systems do hot water as well as heating control if you need it.

Have fun!

 

[Mike.J]

I find the concept of these smart! systems a bit strange, why do we need them, is it to save money, programmer does that, or is it for convenience, in this spiralling const climate, convenience should come second, or is it to keep up with the Jones's? I know one guy who insists on checking on his front door camera and heating when out with friends, it always seems to happen when the conversation if not revolving around him.

 

[Andy1733]

I have the wiser rad control set-up, changed from the Honeywell. I Only installed it a few months ago and the concept is very good though a winter will see if it's beneficial
my heating is set to come on at 330pm at 19 degree. At 630pm it raises to 21 degree till 9pm then goes off. The bedrooms come on at 330pm at 18 degree and raise to 20 degree at 8pm This suits our lifestyle and time we go to bed mid week.
They are easy to set up. Only thing I'm not sure about is battery life. 8 rads with 2 aa battery in each unit.

Screen shot of the app layout below

 

[nsalam]

This is cool! Let us know how the install goes!

 

[brummydave]

I find the concept of these smart! systems a bit strange, why do we need them, is it to save money, programmer does that, or is it for convenience, in this spiralling const climate, convenience should come second, or is it to keep up with the Jones's? I know one guy who insists on checking on his front door camera and heating when out with friends, it always seems to happen when the conversation if not revolving around him.

There's several concepts. The main one is to save money by making it easier to control the heating temperatures. A programmer only sets times and therefore cannot be as efficient as a programmable thermostat that optimises the heating curve. (These have existed for decades in non-smart forms). Smart systems can link in to weather compensation, geofencing and as I said in the case of Nest, actually reduce bills without you realising. The ability to remotely control each radiator can both save energy and increase comfort when used properly.

I think some people will show off / share their gadgets / excitedly encourage others to improve their lot, with many aspects of life not just cameras and stats I just leave them be.

 

[Mike.J]

A correctly set up TRV valve does all the above, except make you look superior in the pub.

 

[Andy1733]

A correctly set up TRV valve does all the above, except make you look superior in the pub.

Have you used the smart valves Mike? Ive used and fitted TRV I'm most of my properties but have the smart valves in my own house. They are far superior to the STD TRV and I won't be going back.

 

[UNG]

A correctly set up TRV valve does all the above, except make you look superior in the pub.

A standard TRV does not have the flexibility that a smart TRV has, a smart TRV can have it's own multi temperature variable heating profile preset without having to twiddle with the TRV every few hours
And just to burst the myth you have you don't have to be in a pub to operate it, it will operate from anywhere you have a data connection

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

without having to twiddle with the TRV every few hours

I'm a bit unclear as to why anyone would need to twiddle with a TRV every few hours??

Actually...... why would you need to twiddle with a TRV valve frequently at all?????
Once you have got your heating system set up and balanced for your regular various room functions?

e.g. one of our kid's bedrooms....
Off at university drop the TRV down..
Know when they are back home.. Adjust TRV back up..
but NOT every few hours, or days, or weeks..
More realistically just a few times each year?

What lifestyles, and who are the people, who need to adjust TRV's frequently per day via phone app, whilst away from home??

 

[Andy1733]

I'm a bit unclear as to why anyone would need to twiddle with a TRV every few hours??

Actually...... why would you need to twiddle with a TRV valve frequently at all?????
Once you have got your heating system set up and balanced for your regular various room functions?

e.g. one of our kid's bedrooms....
Off at university drop the TRV down..
Know when they are back home.. Adjust TRV back up..
but NOT every few hours, or days, or weeks..
More realistically just a few times each year?

What lifestyles, and who are the people, who need to adjust TRV's frequently per day via phone app, whilst away from home??

I think your confusing needing to fiddle and the ability to fiddle.


This is how my setup works.
My house is open plan and I have 5 rads down stairs and 4 upstairs plus a towel rail. We are out all day until 4pm. The heating comes on at 330pm
The ground floor is set at X temp and the upstairs is set at X temp. This is set quite low just to take the chill off. I would say 18 ish (all rooms are different) Everything so far is exactly like a STD TRV
Around 6pm when the temp outside drops and we stop cooking ect the TRV in the bedrooms goes up by about 2 degrees, ready for kids bath time and then drop back down at 9pm
Downstairs the temp goes up by 2 degree around 7pm so whilst were TV watching it's quite toasty. Then drops back down around 9pm

In the morning this is reversed. The heating comes on at 5am at the 2 degree higher temp then drops back down after 1 hour to the lower temp for an additional 3 hours.

So basically the 5 hours evening heating is set 2 hours low setting then 3 hours at the higher setting and the morning setting is set at 1 hour higher temp and 3 hour at the lower temp.
I guess you could argue do I really need this smart TRV though the natural progression is
No heating. Coal fire in 1 room. Central heating,. Central heating with a room stat,. Central heating with TRV Central heating with smart TRV

I guess I could argue I'm saving on 5 hours at 2 degree lower temp per day. Some would say why bother. Even some folk think leaving the heating on 24 hours a day is better than on off on off..

Personal choice. I'm in the fiddler camp

 

[Mike.J]

And just to burst the myth you have you don't have to be in a pub to operate it, it will operate from anywhere you have a data connection

Ohh and there I was thinking it only works on instructions sent from a pub.

 

[drooper]

Horses for courses, i think my system is probably the most efficient , hot water and heating come on at 5.45 am for couple of hours then off allday as its just cats in and they have nice fur coats!! Then it comes back on around 4 pm till 6.30 and then if we require more heating or hot water we get up and press the 1 hour advance button with a finger and sit back down again !! Not fashionable i know but pretty efficient if you ask me

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I think your confusing needing to fiddle and the ability to fiddle.

I guess you could argue do I really need this smart TRV though the natural progression is
No heating. Coal fire in 1 room. Central heating,. Central heating with a room stat,. [++SEE COMMENT BELOW++] Central heating with TRV Central heating with smart TRV

I would suggest that your progression theory omits a significant step:-
i.e.: "Central heating with multiple zones and multiple thermostats and standards TRV's"

e.g.
For more years than I can remember our heating system in our relatively modest 4bed 2bathroom home,
has had a 4zone heating system. with a traditional 4zone, 24hour, 7day, digital time clock programmer.

So, we have;
Downstairs radiators zone with its own thermostat + rads with TRV's.
Upstairs radiators zone with its own thermostat + rads with TRV's.
Hot water cylinder zone with cylinder thermostats.
Towel radiators zone + rad in utility area with its own thermostat including pipe stat but no TRV's.

The property was originally a more basic 2up 2down, no garage, but sufficient land to extend to the side & rear..
We have extended the property twice over the 30+ years we have lived here.. (adding bedrooms, bathrooms, garage, kitchen extension etc)
Including banging in loads of added insulation, (loft voids, void under floors), as and when alterations have been in progress.

The result is that even if we came back to a cold house, just sticking on the downstairs rads, soon warms up the main living areas..

Reality is that downstairs heating is on earlier than the upstairs heating.. (and some downstairs heat will drift upstairs due to heat rising).
Individual TRV's will turn rooms off if they get warm enough..
Towel radiators, (plus the bathrooms), are warmed up around the normal morning / evening washing times..
Hot water ticks over around the typical hot water times of most average systems..

If for any reason we needed to boost/adjust any aspect of our heating..
then 99.99% of the time one or more members of the household would be walking past the thermostat and/or program timer so could adjust the temperate or the active time with 1 or 2hour boosts etc, etc.
As normal daily life includes walking to the kitchen, bathroom, other rooms, rubbish bins etc. etc. to continue normal everyday activites.
(we certainly don't just sit down in the lounge all evening after getting back from work!).

And, unless all doors are kept shut, individual smart room thermostats will have some element of heat drifting to or from adjacent areas of the property.

So my case would be:-
A well-designed multi-zone traditional heating system would have negligible benefit from the expense of installing smart valves.
Whereas a basic single heat zone, (whole house) system, could simulate a multi-zone heating system by installing smart TRV's.
And, Holiday lets, Air BnB's, Rental accommodation can benefit from remote phone-app heating control..
But battery failure on any wireless device can be a real pain-in-bum!!!

 

[Andy1733]

I would suggest that your progression theory omits a significant step:-
i.e.: "Central heating with multiple zones and multiple thermostats and standards TRV's"

e.g.
For more years than I can remember our heating system in our relatively modest 4bed 2bathroom home,
has had a 4zone heating system. with a traditional 4zone, 24hour, 7day, digital time clock programmer.

So, we have;
Downstairs radiators zone with its own thermostat + rads with TRV's.
Upstairs radiators zone with its own thermostat + rads with TRV's.
Hot water cylinder zone with cylinder thermostats.
Towel radiators zone + rad in utility area with its own thermostat including pipe stat but no TRV's.

The property was originally a more basic 2up 2down, no garage, but sufficient land to extend to the side & rear..
We have extended the property twice over the 30+ years we have lived here.. (adding bedrooms, bathrooms, garage, kitchen extension etc)
Including banging in loads of added insulation, (loft voids, void under floors), as and when alterations have been in progress.

The result is that even if we came back to a cold house, just sticking on the downstairs rads, soon warms up the main living areas..

Reality is that downstairs heating is on earlier than the upstairs heating.. (and some downstairs heat will drift upstairs due to heat rising).
Individual TRV's will turn rooms off if they get warm enough..
Towel radiators, (plus the bathrooms), are warmed up around the normal morning / evening washing times..
Hot water ticks over around the typical hot water times of most average systems..

If for any reason we needed to boost/adjust any aspect of our heating..
then 99.99% of the time one or more members of the household would be walking past the thermostat and/or program timer so could adjust the temperate or the active time with 1 or 2hour boosts etc, etc.
As normal daily life includes walking to the kitchen, bathroom, other rooms, rubbish bins etc. etc. to continue normal everyday activites.
(we certainly don't just sit down in the lounge all evening after getting back from work!).

And, unless all doors are kept shut, individual smart room thermostats will have some element of heat drifting to or from adjacent areas of the property.

So my case would be:-
A well-designed multi-zone traditional heating system would have negligible benefit from the expense of installing smart valves.
Whereas a basic single heat zone, (whole house) system, could simulate a multi-zone heating system by installing smart TRV's.
And, Holiday lets, Air BnB's, Rental accommodation can benefit from remote phone-app heating control..
But battery failure on any wireless device can be a real pain-in-bum!!!

So basically the smart TRV are a next jump from your zonal system. The point is, Do we need to keep improving and getting better setups. I guess if you ask our grandparents you can either use a 50p bag of coal or spend 3k on a central heating system I'm sure they stick to one heated room with coal.

 

[Mike.J]

But battery failure on any wireless device can be a real pain-in-bum!!!

And lets not forget the need to keep charging your phone every day, my old Noika 1701 I think it was would keep charged for a month, unlike my iPhone.

 

[Addis1988]