Thats what its all about , give & take and as long as both parties are sensible its the way to go , should pay dividends in the long run , and the long run is the important bit .
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Private Landlord - Electrical Installation Condition Report
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CinnamonDonkey
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Thank you guys, I know feel more prepared to chat with my electrician.
@phil d: I very much agree. I'm the sort of guy who is more than happy to stick to one trades person, mechanic, whatever if I feel we can work together and I'm confident I can trust them. I'd even go out my way to recommend them.
Unfortunately, I have come across more people I would not trust than those I would. It tends to make it harder to trust the next guy that comes along.
All the more reason to stick with the good guys once you find them
.
@Evans Electric: NO C1's on the report.
@Doc Hudson: "you cannot have two codes for the same observation" - that's a really good point and makes complete sense.
@phil d: I very much agree. I'm the sort of guy who is more than happy to stick to one trades person, mechanic, whatever if I feel we can work together and I'm confident I can trust them. I'd even go out my way to recommend them.
Unfortunately, I have come across more people I would not trust than those I would. It tends to make it harder to trust the next guy that comes along.
All the more reason to stick with the good guys once you find them
.@Evans Electric: NO C1's on the report.
@Doc Hudson: "you cannot have two codes for the same observation" - that's a really good point and makes complete sense.
Doc Hudson
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For your further reference there is a download 'best practice guide', that offers assistance with selecting the correct codes when doing inspections. http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/mediafile/100740439/Best-Practice-Guide-4-Issue-4-.pdf And there is a BS7617 booklet called guidance note 3 that has detail about undertaking inspections, in which are sample forms, where two of the pages give a checklist of key items that need to be verified during inspection. On the lists some of the items have regulations numbers in brackets listed. the above information may help you with deciphering the choice of codes on your report with respect to their suitability.
Doc H,
Copies of some pages of the model forms from guidance not 3 are attached below.
Doc H,
Copies of some pages of the model forms from guidance not 3 are attached below.
Ok legally there is nothing that directly says you must have an EICR, but there are 2 other bits of legislation to consider:-
1/ Electricity at Work Regulations - an electrical system must be safe to use. This is really aimed at businesses, but as a rented property is a business, some would argue you should comply as a landlord.
2/ The Sales of Goods and Services act - ie trading standards. Under this argument it is not unreasonable for your tennant to expect the electrical system to be safe to use, bit like hiring a car - you would expect the seatbelts to work and the vehicle to have an MOT.
To comply with the above you need to be able to demostrate the system is safe, and that can be demonstrated legally by an EICR. Much longer versions of these arguments can be found on-line.
There is one other argument for testing - legal arse covering! Should a fault cause a fire and tennant get injured / lose property, you can demonstrate you have taken reasonable measures to ensure a safe electrical system ergo the tennant did something stupid and ******** it up! Also, if everything is up to date it does help protect your property, which is a lot more money that a test cert.....
1/ Electricity at Work Regulations - an electrical system must be safe to use. This is really aimed at businesses, but as a rented property is a business, some would argue you should comply as a landlord.
2/ The Sales of Goods and Services act - ie trading standards. Under this argument it is not unreasonable for your tennant to expect the electrical system to be safe to use, bit like hiring a car - you would expect the seatbelts to work and the vehicle to have an MOT.
To comply with the above you need to be able to demostrate the system is safe, and that can be demonstrated legally by an EICR. Much longer versions of these arguments can be found on-line.
There is one other argument for testing - legal arse covering! Should a fault cause a fire and tennant get injured / lose property, you can demonstrate you have taken reasonable measures to ensure a safe electrical system ergo the tennant did something stupid and ******** it up! Also, if everything is up to date it does help protect your property, which is a lot more money that a test cert.....
phil d
Well-known member
Agreed with the above, also as the guy I know does, put something in the tenancy agreement to stop them messing with the electrics, The landlord I know was spending money getting me to correct issues that the tenant had caused. I got called out to a rented property (social landlord) by a tenant who'd tried to fit some lights and messed it all up, they didn't want to ring the housing as they knew they'd be in trouble for doing what they'd done. A few weeks later I was speaking with a guy from said landlord and he said that they now charge them heavily and give them a tenancy warning if the problem is bad enough.
CinnamonDonkey
Active member
@binky: Very sensible and valid points. Like I say I have no issue with the concept of conducting regular assesments. Personally I think it should apply to every household not just rented accommodation. The argument that home owners look after their property better is mute. They don't, they sit on it and wait until they can't wait any longer. What's more, they're more likely to go the DIY route. Tenants are forbidden from making alterations and very quickly speak up if there is a problem (that's not to say tenat always obey the terms of the tenancy agreement - that's another issue).
All that aside there needs to be some perspective: http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/what-we-do/policies-and-research/statistics/
For 2011/12:
Deaths as the result of electrical installations: 8
Injuries as the result of electrical installations: 167
Fires as the result of electrical installations: 2,471
Remember this is in a country with a population of nearly 70 Million.
None decent homes: 2012/2013 (not sure how they measure this):
Private Rented: 33.1%
Owner Occupied: 20.3%
Local Authority + Housing Association: 30.6%
What's more as and engineer I know that after enough years the world starts to look very different. I see a bolt and start thinking torque ratings, compression, extension, corrosion. Everyone else on the other hand goes the TAF (Tight As F***) approach and to be honest - it's generally fine. I see a cable and I think load rating, insulation characteristics, where is it installed... you get the picture.
@Sidewinder: Thanks for the link. It affirms what I already know (especially as Bristol County Council forced me to do a landlord certification - again not a requirement for other landlords outside my postcode).
Here's the reality. Not all Landlords are penny pinching slum lords. Most private landlords I know are landlords out of circumstance or they were buying a new home and wanted to keep the previous home as an investment vehicle (let's face it your getting nothing from the bank in terms of interest on savings, and you future state pension is worthless).
In my case I had to relocate for personal reasons and due to the down turn in the property market selling was not an option. Nor was leaving the property empty as Bristol Count Council penalise owners of empty properties (they're charged full council tax to deter the owners from keeping them empty). On top of that an empty property in Bristol will very quickly be taken over by squatters or canabis growers.
It just so happens that a freind, single working parent, had been made homeless. I agreed to let her rent at a reduced rate, because it was mutually benificial. It saved me from having the problems of an empty property and it meant she could move into a 3 bed semi, in a good area which she probably would not otherwise afford.
Isn't the big thing about better landlords, better quality homing and all at a more affordabile rate? At least that is the line spun by they goverment whilst at the same time they're grinding down on private landlords and driving them out of the market in favour of bigger corporations/businesses.
60% of the income from the property is going to the goverment in some form. 30% goes back to the bank and the final 10% goes to meet legal obligations (insurance, certifications, etc) I also provide full breakdown cover for my tenant she only has to call a number. After all this the £40 a month that was left over was set aside for maintenance tasks.
I'm not making excuses here! I'm simply pointing out that the reality of the situation for a large number of landlords in that there is only so much they can do. As it stands with the addition of SLL I'm now effectively paying for the tenant to live in the property. Even if I increase her rent the amount of additional revenue generated bairly makes it sustainable. The end result, she's going to end up out of what in reality is a perfectly good home.
If the government and everyone else really want better landlords and better homes then they need to stop penalising the good landlords and start making it worth their while - give us a break, gsh!
As for Electricians. Like every profession, you get the good and the bad. Unfortunately there are probably more bad than good in that most see and EICR as an opportunity to make money (one guy I called actually said "You're ok, landlords have loads of money", he didn't get the job).
To lighten the tone abit, my wife once took her car in for MOT with a well known garage. They told her it had failed and needed expensive brake repairs, "Oh dear, your brake pipes are rusty, the brake pads are warn and the brake discs need changing". She came home all distressed and told me. I had to called the garage and pointed out, "The brake pipes are enameled copper and unlikely to be rusty. I had recently serviced the vehicle which included changing the brake pads and the discs are not excessively warn".
All that aside there needs to be some perspective: http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/what-we-do/policies-and-research/statistics/
For 2011/12:
Deaths as the result of electrical installations: 8
Injuries as the result of electrical installations: 167
Fires as the result of electrical installations: 2,471
Remember this is in a country with a population of nearly 70 Million.
None decent homes: 2012/2013 (not sure how they measure this):
Private Rented: 33.1%
Owner Occupied: 20.3%
Local Authority + Housing Association: 30.6%
What's more as and engineer I know that after enough years the world starts to look very different. I see a bolt and start thinking torque ratings, compression, extension, corrosion. Everyone else on the other hand goes the TAF (Tight As F***) approach and to be honest - it's generally fine. I see a cable and I think load rating, insulation characteristics, where is it installed... you get the picture.
@Sidewinder: Thanks for the link. It affirms what I already know (especially as Bristol County Council forced me to do a landlord certification - again not a requirement for other landlords outside my postcode).
Here's the reality. Not all Landlords are penny pinching slum lords. Most private landlords I know are landlords out of circumstance or they were buying a new home and wanted to keep the previous home as an investment vehicle (let's face it your getting nothing from the bank in terms of interest on savings, and you future state pension is worthless).
In my case I had to relocate for personal reasons and due to the down turn in the property market selling was not an option. Nor was leaving the property empty as Bristol Count Council penalise owners of empty properties (they're charged full council tax to deter the owners from keeping them empty). On top of that an empty property in Bristol will very quickly be taken over by squatters or canabis growers.
It just so happens that a freind, single working parent, had been made homeless. I agreed to let her rent at a reduced rate, because it was mutually benificial. It saved me from having the problems of an empty property and it meant she could move into a 3 bed semi, in a good area which she probably would not otherwise afford.
Isn't the big thing about better landlords, better quality homing and all at a more affordabile rate? At least that is the line spun by they goverment whilst at the same time they're grinding down on private landlords and driving them out of the market in favour of bigger corporations/businesses.
60% of the income from the property is going to the goverment in some form. 30% goes back to the bank and the final 10% goes to meet legal obligations (insurance, certifications, etc) I also provide full breakdown cover for my tenant she only has to call a number. After all this the £40 a month that was left over was set aside for maintenance tasks.
I'm not making excuses here! I'm simply pointing out that the reality of the situation for a large number of landlords in that there is only so much they can do. As it stands with the addition of SLL I'm now effectively paying for the tenant to live in the property. Even if I increase her rent the amount of additional revenue generated bairly makes it sustainable. The end result, she's going to end up out of what in reality is a perfectly good home.
If the government and everyone else really want better landlords and better homes then they need to stop penalising the good landlords and start making it worth their while - give us a break, gsh!
As for Electricians. Like every profession, you get the good and the bad. Unfortunately there are probably more bad than good in that most see and EICR as an opportunity to make money (one guy I called actually said "You're ok, landlords have loads of money", he didn't get the job).
To lighten the tone abit, my wife once took her car in for MOT with a well known garage. They told her it had failed and needed expensive brake repairs, "Oh dear, your brake pipes are rusty, the brake pads are warn and the brake discs need changing". She came home all distressed and told me. I had to called the garage and pointed out, "The brake pipes are enameled copper and unlikely to be rusty. I had recently serviced the vehicle which included changing the brake pads and the discs are not excessively warn".
That happens everywhere, it's not a Bristol thing.
The problem is that when you rent it out you have a duty of care and a responsibility to keep the house safe. If anything happened and the electrics were faulty/not to standard this could be blamed for issues, but like everything no-one cares until something happens then they look for someone/something to blame. Part of this duty of care is to have it professionally inspected and maintained. I have no doubt that you didn't intentionally ignore issues and leave things incorrect/dangerous but there are plenty of things that aren't technically right, and could cause an issue later on.
I rented my house out and had to do loads of little things to make it satisfactory. None of these things were an issue, and most of them were to 16th edition so it wasn't that they were a problem electrically, just an issue on paper. I could have left them all as they were, but then if anything did happen it would be me that got asked why they were left like that and the installation not tested/certificate not issued. On the flip side of that, I am in a rented house now, that has 2 used circuits (1 ring main, 1 lighting circuit) for a 4 bedroom house and no RCD, with an old (50's probably) cutout with a 30A fuse. Not an issue currently but if the house burns down I know what will be blamed.
Jono Pashley
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The sooner all landlords are required to be licenced the better.
For 2011/12:
Deaths as the result of electrical installations: 8
Injuries as the result of electrical installations: 167
Fires as the result of electrical installations: 2,471
fortunately our electrics are relatively safe, but apart from deaths, many (the majority) of incidents just don't get reported. Until I became an electrician I didn't realise just how many people had been 'belted' and survived - they make very good customers
What's more as and engineer I know that after enough years the world starts to look very different. I see a bolt and start thinking torque ratings, compression, extension, corrosion. Everyone else on the other hand goes the TAF (Tight As F***) approach and to be honest - it's generally fine. I see a cable and I think load rating, insulation characteristics, where is it installed... you get the picture.
I know what you mean, my training was in the Aerospace industry, electrics are rough as far as I'm concerned
Here's the reality. Not all Landlords are penny pinching slum lords.
Unfortunately we have all met many of these, so apologies for 'tarring you with the same brush'.
As for garages, never send a woman, they are bad enough to men :^O
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