Push-fits vs Crimps

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Apache

Cow Fiddler ™
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After a discussion in a recent thread re push-fits and crimps I thought I would do a mini experiment.

Materials and method

A length of 2.5mm T&E roughly 30cm long was taken along with two lengths of 2.5mm stranded conduit cable. The twin and earth was stripped down so I had 2 equal lengths.

The cables were cut into three equal length parts and 0.75cm stripped from each end. The solid core 2.5mm was joined with a red straight crimp, crimped twice with a decent quality ratchet crimp tool using the correct die. The stranded cable was joined with a blue crimp, in the same way. Each was covered with a length of heat-shrink and it was warmed using a hot air heat gun.

The cables were then fitted with a 2 way 24A push fit connector as sold by cpc. This left the cables back to their original length with a push fit and a crimp. The cable was clamped in a bench vice and a pair of pliers was used to pull the cable to see which connector gave way first.

IMG00082-20101227-1816.jpg


IMG00083-20101227-1817.jpg


Results

Each cable gave way at the crimp with the push-fit holding tight. There was noticeably more force required to pull apart the crimp on the stranded cable.

IMG00084-20101227-1822.jpg


It took me [an amateur, but someone who has used both methods in the past] 5 minutes to do four crimp joints with heat shrink. I fitted all four push-fits in less than 30 seconds. The cables were all prepared the same way before I started timing.

Discussion

Time is money in real life. If you can fit a push fit connector in less than 10 seconds when a crimp joint takes over a minute in a consumer unit change situation where a lot of cables need extending the time saving could be significant.

There is a lot less space needed around the cable to fit a push fit than get a pair of crimping pliers in, so more applications [eg repairing a damaged cable in the wall.

In my experiment [i have no means of measuring force] all the crimps failed with moderate pressure, none of the push-fits could be dismounted with all my bodyweight pulling against them. The bench with >100kg tools was moving and the push-fits plastic deformed but remained tight.

IMG00085-20101227-1822.jpg


Conclusion

A push-fit is clearly stronger than a crimp, faster and easier fitted. In a consumer unit or any cable extension situation I can't see how it could be thought of as any less 'professional'.

 
Absolute Rubbish!!

All i can say, is Learn how to make a crimped joint correctly and it will NOT pull out!!!

You can't see how a Wago or any other form of connector joint in a CU would be thought of as any less professional, because your a Vet!!

 
Absolute Rubbish!! All i can say, is Learn how to make a crimped joint correctly and it will NOT pull out!!!

You can't see how a Wago or any other form of connector joint in a CU would be thought of as any less professional, because your a Vet!!
Pray tell how you make these crimp joints? Not sure it is exactly brain surgery.

Maybe I will start a poll.

If you like I will pop a couple of push fits in the post at my own expense for you to have a play with. Then, maybe, you could form an informed decision?

 
No ....it's not brain surgery, it's all about having the right material and the right tools.

I'm not dissing Wago's in any way, they are streets ahead of the standard connector now commonly used in the UK. They are NOT a substitute however, for every situation.

I have stated before, i have used other manufacturers equivalents of Wago's, so i don't require to be re-informed about push fit connectors.

Oh and i don't believe for a minute that those push fit connections are still tight, they may still be holding the cable in, but they are also now loose fitting, as those thin copper strips would have been deformed....

 
Interesting experiment, thankyou.

The next sensible step would be check on the electrical performance of the joints, mechanical strength is important of course, but I'm of the opinion if they pass the fat bloke test (i.e. me pulling on them) they're good enough - certainly for in a consumer unit! If the contact area is (as I suspect) less on the push-fits, I'd be concerned about there long term performance. I know this is only my prejudice, but there you go!

 
Interesting experiment, thankyou.The next sensible step would be check on the electrical performance of the joints, mechanical strength is important of course, but I'm of the opinion if they pass the fat bloke test (i.e. me pulling on them) they're good enough - certainly for in a consumer unit! If the contact area is (as I suspect) less on the push-fits, I'd be concerned about there long term performance. I know this is only my prejudice, but there you go!
Valid points Riggy, but to my way of thinking, they have passed all the required tests, or they wouldn't be on sale in the UK, ...We have to take it that the long term performance is as they say, ...Fit For Purpose!!

I think maybe a better way of looking at the use of these Wago's or any other form of connector come to that in a CU. Is if you were planning on using such a CU change as part of an assessment, and if all or most of the conductors required extending. What would you consider as that CU being presented at it's best, ...A bunch of wago's or similar, ...or crimped heat shrunk insulated terminations?? Now to my mind, there isn't any doubt whatsoever, what i would rather see, it's a complete No-Brainer!!

 
Next option is to repeat experiment with a load connected to the cables and see what temperature is reached at each connector. Personally i would be more concerned about the electrical performance of the connector and less concerned about mechanical strength....I don't get many people 'pulling my wire' if you see what I mean: ROTFWL

thermal image of said joint would also be good:coat

 
Next option is to repeat experiment with a load connected to the cables and see what temperature is reached at each connector. Personally i would be more concerned about the electrical performance of the connector and less concerned about mechanical strength....I don't get many people 'pulling my wire' if you see what I mean: ROTFWL thermal image of said joint would also be good:coat
thats not what your other half said yesterday :slap :slap :^O :^O

 
Its still an interesting experiment and is not absolute rubbish at all , no one else on the Forum has thought to carry it out .

Reminded me a bit of when I was an apprentice, I used to ask the sparkies questions at tea breaks, how does that work, whats an intermediate switch, whats a solenoid etc some of the other apprentices would sneer, as if they already knew, but when the explanation came they were all ears . I don't forget the pi$$takers nor those who showed kindness .

Must say I always pull my crimped joints (Blues and Yellows) to make sure they have clamped up securely.

The push fit ones have the human element removed as you rely on the manufactorer's quality control .

Never had a problem with the larger sizes.

 
Absolute Rubbish!! All i can say, is Learn how to make a crimped joint correctly and it will NOT pull out!!!

You can't see how a Wago or any other form of connector joint in a CU would be thought of as any less professional, because your a Vet!!
just because patch is a vet doesnt mean he doesnt know what he is doing. he knows a lot more about electrics than certain other 'electricians' on this forum.

 
I will just add at this point, whatever method of connection is used, crimp, push-fit, screw terminal block, etc. there should always be adequate mechanical protection to prevent the joint from being exposed to any strain on the connections. e.g. an enclosure or joint box with strain relief clamps, grips or glands etc. So Apaches test should never actually be encountered on a correctly installed joint. However it is still an interesting comparison.

Doc H.

 
Its still an interesting experiment and is not absolute rubbish at all , no one else on the Forum has thought to carry it out . Reminded me a bit of when I was an apprentice, I used to ask the sparkies questions at tea breaks, how does that work, whats an intermediate switch, whats a solenoid etc some of the other apprentices would sneer, as if they already knew, but when the explanation came they were all ears . I don't forget the pi$$takers nor those who showed kindness .

Must say I always pull my crimped joints (Blues and Yellows) to make sure they have clamped up securely.

The push fit ones have the human element removed as you rely on the manufactorer's quality control .

Never had a problem with the larger sizes.
You have been in the industry a long time, like myself. You know that using a decent correct crimp, of the correct size, and using a good ratchet type crimping tool, terminations do not pull OUT!!

None knows the quality of the crimps used, or the tool used to crimp the cables into them....

So knowing what a good crimped joint is all about, and being around them for god knows how many years, i can't see how ALL those crimped terminations failed in this so-called test, while the Wagos supposedly didn't. Which is why i said ''Absolute Rubbish'' and still maintain that stand/conclusion....

---------- AUTO MERGE Post added at 01:11 ---------- Previous post was at 01:01 ----------

[quote name='Andy

 
You have been in the industry a long time, like myself. You know that using a decent correct crimp, of the correct size, and using a good ratchet type crimping tool, terminations do not pull OUT!! None knows the quality of the crimps used, or the tool used to crimp the cables into them....
These were the crimps

http://cpc.farnell.com/_/026g/500-assorted-terminals-connectors/dp/AR71386

These are the crimp pliers

http://cpc.farnell.com/_/ht-301/insulated-terminals-red-blue-yellow/dp/TL08620

I can assure you that everything fails at some point. There will always be a force sufficient to pull a crimp out, made by any means you chose. If you think that a cold formed crimp will be stronger than the cable I believe you are disillusioned. A reasonable pull, holding the cable with some pliers and all failed.

Doc - not saying this is what they are designed to do, merely testing a hunch.

 
Valid points Riggy, but to my way of thinking, they have passed all the required tests, or they wouldn't be on sale in the UK, ...We have to take it that the long term performance is as they say, ...Fit For Purpose!! I think maybe a better way of looking at the use of these Wago's or any other form of connector come to that in a CU. Is if you were planning on using such a CU change as part of an assessment, and if all or most of the conductors required extending. What would you consider as that CU being presented at it's best, ...A bunch of wago's or similar, ...or crimped heat shrunk insulated terminations?? Now to my mind, there isn't any doubt whatsoever, what i would rather see, it's a complete No-Brainer!!
Its a good job your not responsible for any assessments then I guess.

Now as an experiment it can not be concluded that its proven as even apache will admit without scientific measurements we can only conclude that the experiment however basic deserves debate.

I have for a long time suspected crimp joints, and like others have stated I often pull at them to confirm connection. I must admit that I have managed to pull many of them apart.

To say that a Vet can not advise on electrical matters is a little offensive, to start with a Vet has some degree of inteligence often far in access of the adverage maintenance electrician.

A Vet will also be conversant with experiments, having had to do many of them over the 6 or 7 years they have had to study to gain the qualification.

As far as I am aware Farriday, and all the other inovators in the science of electrics were not actually electricians, and we mere mortals are only here because of those educated scientist's who actually asked questions and did experiments.

Now if you actually mean "your" personal preference then please say so, without rubbishing all others. On any assessment no connection would be frowned apon providing that it complied with the regulations, and personal preference should not cloud the judgement of the assessor.

One reason for any forum is to throw ideas out for debate, and discussion, which can not normally be done within your own group of friends, I find the forum innovative in ideas, instructive, and informative with ideas comming from unsuspecting areas and posters.

I think its a very good experiment and one that I had never thought of conducting and has given me food for thought as I use crimp connectors more than push fit.

 
So ....your using crimp terminations are manufactured in China!!! Hmmmm!!!

Never seen this Crimp tool before, but it does say adjustable crimping pressure, so i suggest that you adjust them!!!

A ''reasonable'' pull with pliers or without, will not pull a good crimped joint apart. If it does there's something Wrong!!! I've never been able to pull a crimped cable out, only when there's been a problem with the crimping.

I am not disillusioned, and have never said that the joint will be stronger than the cable. if you put enough force into a any cold formed joint it will fail.

So i stand firm on my assessment of your so-called test!! Are you on some sort of quest to disprove a tried and tested form of termination that has been around more years than a lot of the electricians on this Forum. I've been around these terminations almost as long as they've been available, and before that the soldered joint.

So i KNOW they are sound....

 
So ....your using crimp terminations are manufactured in China!!! Hmmmm!!! Never seen this Crimp tool before, but it does say adjustable crimping pressure, so i suggest that you adjust them!!!
Find me some made in England and I'll buy some. I'd hazard a guess that 99% or more of plastic crimps were made in that part of the world.

The pliers are adjusted to one setting off tightest.

A ''reasonable'' pull with pliers or without, will not pull a good crimped joint apart. If it does there's something Wrong!!! I've never been able to pull a crimped cable out, only when there's been a problem with the crimping.
If you are so old an experienced maybe you are getting a bit weak. Perhaps a young, fit country vet is stronger than you. :innocent

So i stand firm on my assessment of your so-called test!! Are you on some sort of quest to disprove a tried and tested form of termination that has been around more years than a lot of the electricians on this Forum. I've been around these terminations almost as long as they've been available, and before that the soldered joint. So i KNOW they are sound....
I have nothing against crimps, never doubted their suitability as a connection. What I was testing for myself was the effectiveness of crimps versus push-fits. I thought it was a useful mini experiment testing the two methods. Feel free to repeat the experiment yourself!

 

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