Push-fits vs Crimps

[Sidewinder]

Well,

This has happened since!

Post 13, Larnacaman, Whilst I can agree with much of your comments there are a few issues. Above and some to follow. I don

 

[Larnacaman]

Its a good job your not responsible for any assessments then I guess.Now as an experiment it can not be concluded that its proven as even apache will admit without scientific measurements we can only conclude that the experiment however basic deserves debate.I have for a long time suspected crimp joints, and like others have stated I often pull at them to confirm connection. I must admit that I have managed to pull many of them apart.

To say that a Vet can not advise on electrical matters is a little offensive, to start with a Vet has some degree of inteligence often far in access of the adverage maintenance electrician.A Vet will also be conversant with experiments, having had to do many of them over the 6 or 7 years they have had to study to gain the qualification.As far as I am aware Farriday, and all the other inovators in the science of electrics were not actually electricians, and we mere mortals are only here because of those educated scientist's who actually asked questions and did experiments.

Now if you actually mean "your" personal preference then please say so, without rubbishing all others. On any assessment no connection would be frowned apon providing that it complied with the regulations, and personal preference should not cloud the judgement of the assessor.

One reason for any forum is to throw ideas out for debate, and discussion, which can not normally be done within your own group of friends, I find the forum innovative in ideas, instructive, and informative with ideas comming from unsuspecting areas and posters.

I think its a very good experiment and one that I had never thought of conducting and has given me food for thought as I use crimp connectors more than push fit.

Yes it is, if that Cu is full of Wagos. If you can't see that it would look a mess i feel sorry for you!!

I don't really think you know what your talking about, if you consider a maintenance electrician, knows less than a trained Vet. Perhaps you need to visit an automated factory in your area, then you can come back and state your apologies. One things for sure, they will undoubtedly have more qualifications to there name, than the average contracting electrician and most will be HNC/HND.....

There are many of us out there that have had to undertake 6/7/8 years of professional training, this was discussed only recently in one of the threads on the Forum.

Your obviously not reading what i've posted, i've never rubbished Wago connectors, on the contrary i think there a great improvement on standard connectors presently being used. Iv'e stated that they are not a substitute to be used in all circumstances, because there NOT!!

I've stated quite clearly i think, that of my personal preferences on this issue!! In fact you can see them in the very post you quoted of mine.

All posts here on the forum are our own opinions, you are entitled to yours as much as i am to mine.

So what's the problem??

 

[Manator]

Thank you Sidewinder as you can see I deleted the post before you posted, knowing my error.

I just like everything to be compliant!!

 

[Sidewinder]

DOH!

Manator, for shame that has messed up all me numbering!!!

 

[Badger]

Thank you Sidewinder as you can see I deleted the post before you posted, knowing my error.I just like everything to be compliant!!

in all honesty ive found some crimps pull apart but thats cause of the crimping tool being misaligned or a didgy crimp, after sorting new crimps out and recrimping on them occassions i find crimps to be a veryy effective joint

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Gosh...

Looks like Patch lit the blue touch paper again!!!!!!! ]

First Mr Winder (AKA Jenny! :Blushing :tongue in cheek:x:slap)

Well said sir!:worship:Applaud:Applaud:Applaud

For those wanting to put one or two Wagos in a CU...

there is a little DIN rail mounted Carrier thing-a-ma-jig!

http://www.wagobox.com/shop/lever/din-rail-mounted-connector-carrier-5pcs.html

If you need to extend loads & loads of joints...

personally I would enclose them in a separate box/enclosure NOT the CU, be they Wagos OR crimps!!!

But hey-ho thats juts my preference....

also say...

I think the pivotal point is...

STRANDED or SOLID CORES!

Stranded best in lever type wagos or Crimps

Solid best in push fit wagos!

GuinnessGuinnessGuinnessGuinness

 

[Apache]

For those wanting to put one or two Wagos in a CU...

there is a little DIN rail mounted Carrier thing-a-ma-jig!

http://www.wagobox.com/shop/lever/din-rail-mounted-connector-carrier-5pcs.html

Keep up SL

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=13197

 

[Voltimax]

As sidewinder has already stated, solid core and crimps do not work, I don't care how good your ratchet crimpers are. Wagos and their equivalents are the way to go when dealing with solid cores below 10mm.

 

[Sidewinder]

Other option is DIN rail & terminals in a seperate box...

 

[Larnacaman]

Sorry SideWinder, ....but to say that virtually all crimped cable connections will loosen over time, then there are an awful lot of crimped connections that should be failing left right and centre. ...Especially those terminated on MV and HV cables, where any sort of loosening (small gaps) will have some dramatic affects on those connections, whether booted or not!!

Now ....in all my posts on this subject, i've never dissed the Wago connector. By my statement of using Crimped connectors in CU's in preference to Wago connectors a whole lot of rubbish has been thrown up, started off by a Vet. Now i don't care whether he is better than some of the electricians on this forum or not, he is NOT qualified to make judgements on suitability, the same way as i'm not qualified to make a veterinary diagnosis on an animal. This is getting more like a quest on his part, to rubbish a proven type of connection in favour of Wago connectors..... or maybe it was because of me making the suggestion??

One more thing, if i can purchase easily, crimp connections manufactured in UK and Germany etc, in Cyprus, i'm dammed sure you can purchase them in the UK. The Chinese products are much cheaper, and as for most things in this world ..you get what you pay for!! I've been testing crimped terminations of all sizes for years now, sometimes wanting them to fail, ....they very very rarely do. ....end of story ...lol!!!

 

[Apache]

Other option is DIN rail & terminals in a seperate box...

Did you read SL's post?

Think it's your bedtime, it's certainly mine

:good night:

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Keep up SLhttp://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=13197

Well if you are going to get all ar5ey referring to OTHER threads....

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6758&highlight=wago+din+rail

]

 

[Larnacaman]

Apache,

You can groan at every post i make, it's like water off a ducks back to me....

 

[Sidewinder]

Larnacaman,

I realise that you have not "dissed" the "Wago" type connector.

However, think about the physics & the mechanics of crimped connectors, they will loosen IF subjected to sufficient "methods", can't think of another word at this time!

They do and they will, hence why in certain scenarios they are not used.

In MV & HV applications as you know I can't comment.

The mechanics of the joint and the loosening methods can be proven however in all scenarios.

 

[Apache]

Apache,You can groan at every post i make, it's like water off a ducks back to me....

1 'groan' in this thread.

Quack?

 

[Voltimax]

One more thing, if i can purchase easily, crimp connections manufactured in UK and Germany etc, in Cyprus, i'm dammed sure you can purchase them in the UK. The Chinese products are much cheaper, and as for most things in this world ..you get what you pay for!! I've been testing crimped terminations of all sizes for years now, sometimes wanting them to fail, ....they very very rarely do. ....end of story ...lol!!!

Crimped connections where solid cores are used often fail, I've seen it many times and I believe there are a few pics over at another electrical forum that won't be mentioned. Crimps and stranded core cables work very well and they look neat, but solid cores under 10mm are a no no, end of.

 

[Larnacaman]

Larnacaman,I realise that you have not "dissed" the "Wago" type connector.

However, think about the physics & the mechanics of crimped connectors, they will loosen IF subjected to sufficient "methods", can't think of another word at this time!

They do and they will, hence why in certain scenarios they are not used.

In MV & HV applications as you know I can't comment.

The mechanics of the joint and the loosening methods can be proven however in all scenarios.

Never seen or used any other MV or HV connection, other than crimp connections. Be they in direct buried cable joints, transformer connections, distribution panel connections..... etc etc!!! As i said never seen any other and never used any other connection type !!!

---------- AUTO MERGE Post added at 04:38 ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 ----------

I think the whole senerio of this thread has now lost it's way.

The basics of this senerio was my suggestion that a good heat shrunk crimped connection was preferable to a Wago connector in a CU, especially if there were going to many of these joints in a CU.

Now really, the end product is totally upto the individual electrician on what method he uses. There really is no point continuing on in the way that it has been going. No-one here is going to change my mind, that's been based on solid ongoing experience over many years. So i'm going to bale out on this thread and let those that want to continue do so. i think everyone knows exactly where i stand, so there is no point in me reiterating what i've already stated in the related posts.....

 

[a1]

For those wanting to put one or two Wagos in a CU...there is a little DIN rail mounted Carrier thing-a-ma-jig!

http://www.wagobox.com/shop/lever/din-rail-mounted-connector-carrier-5pcs.html

I know there is a pic below, from the Wago website. But as most of you know, I am a nosy git and like to see pics of your work, I recall asking a week or two ago about you guys posting pics of your "Din mounted Wagos" in the "My Pictures" forum. Just thought I would re-mention it.

 

[Badger]

only problem i can see with din mounted version is you loose the space for extra circuits which if its a small board/tight space to work may no be such a useful idea using the din rail just my opinion of course, ill get my :coat

---------- AUTO MERGE Post added at 10:25 ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 ----------

anybody notice anything else missing in that photo like a copper busbar linking the mcbs together. ?

 

[kme]

Oooooh - haven`t you all been busy?

If I may inject my thoughts on this?

(First off - my first job was with FKI Babcock, doing QA; one of the jobs was testing the crimp connections used on the fork lift contactors for breaking strain, so I DO have a bit of experience in that dept. OK? )

`Pache: Given the lack of a specific piece of kit, I don`t think it was a bad experiment - as said, no-one else thought of it! My negative points with it are as follows:

1. As previously stated, 2.5 should be a blue crimp, not a red one.

2. Also previously, the strain was along the axis of the crimp, but perpendicular to the axis of the pushfit, therefore biasing the result significantly.

3. I used to have a pair of crimp pliers similar to those in the link. IMHO they weren`t "fit for purpose", as the jaws are completely smooth. IIRC, Admin posted a pic of the SWA ones, which have shaped dies.

I believe, if the experiment were to be repeated, with the strain on the axis of the connection, on both connectors, and the crimp made off with a "decent" crimp pliers, the result may be far more interesting.

n.b. FYI: in order to test joints like this, the piece of kit used is similar to a tool thread on a lathe, which carries a set of jaws away from a fixed point, up a thread. This provides a consistent & constant torque & strain, with no sudden jerks or pulls.

As far as any sort of electrical test on the connections after failure -???????

If the connector has failed, you won`t have a circuit to test, will you? Or have I missed a point.

Larnaca: I believe you do have a good knowledge of your subject. However, I also believe your comments regarding Apache were out of order somewhat. I`d second snakehips` comments about employing him - I`d take him on, anytime

KME