Rewiring necessary?

[ballamory]

Hello all,

I'm currently renovating a house for the rental market, and I'm about to have the kitchen rebuilt. The builder has said that some electrical work needs doing in the house to support the new kitchen, so we asked an electrician to pop around today and take a look.

The house dates from the early 1960s, and from looking at the (rather antiquated) original fuse box and unscrewing one of lighting switches, the electrician essentially seems to think the house needs a complete rewire. This is because he discovered that the lighting ring is not earthed, which he believes should be completely replaced in order to get an electrical safety certificate. He's also proposing to run new sockets to each room in the house, along the corners of the rooms.

Whilst I am happy to get some work done on the electrical side, the renovation is already costing more than I'd hoped, so I'd rather avoid any unnecessary expenses. Although I haven't received a quote yet from him, a complete rewiring sounds like it going to be expensive.

From a bit of research on the Internet, it sounds as though an electrical safety certificate isn't actually a legal requirement from landlords at the moment, although I do understand landlords have an obligation to provide a safe property for people to live in.

What I'd like to know is:

Is it essential to replace the wiring on the lighting ring, in other words is the exisiting ring potentially unsafe by modern standards?

Does the absence of an earth in the lighting ring imply the sockets are also unearthed? He didn't actually check those. If the sockets turns out to be earthed, why would they need replacing?

What sort of sum of money would be resonable to do these tasks?

 

[Cirrus]

Ok, he is probably giving you an 'ideal world' remedy. However, if there is no cpc (earth) on the lighting circuit (not a ring) then this is not necessarily an issue - as long as it all tests out ok (exception to r1 + r2) and class II (plastic, non conducting) fittings are used. Consumer unit probably does need changing, to introduce an RCD at the very least although this is not a requisite based on the existing electrics. Ultimately, your electrics as a landlord must be safe as if anything happens it is you in the dock. My advice - more quotes!

 

[Andy™]

you dont always need to re-wire. you can leave the installation with no earth to the lights providing its RCD protected and all accessories are double insulated.

to do any alteration work, then certain work must be done before hand, such as earthing & RCDs etc

your right about the 'safety' cert not being a legal requirement, but it is a legal requirement that the wiring is safe, a 'periodic inspection report' is one way of proving this (and since your asking these questions, then your obviously not competent with electrical, so how would you know if the installation was safe or not without one?)

unlikely the sockets are unearthed, it was common a long time ago to wire the lights with no earth

your best getting a second opinion, or better still, a periodic inspection report which would highlight all faults with the installation

 

[ProDave]

Try a different electrician. No earth on lighting on it's own is not reason for condemning the installation. However if there is no earth on the lights, then ALL light switches and light fittings must be insulated, so no fancy metal light switches allowed.

What you need is a periodic inspection report. That will mean an electician doing a detailed inspection and test of what's there and reporting on it's condition and advising what needs doing.

The problem the kitchen fitter has, is that any new work has to comply with the current regulations. You old fuse box won't and it's almost certain there will be no, or inadequate, earth bonding.

So as a very minimum, even if the actual physical wiring is okay, expect to pay for a new consumer unit to be fitted and the earth bonding to be brought up to standard. That will be necessary before the kitchen fitter can add new, or alter existing circuits, and in any case is highly advisable to ensure it's all safe for renting.

Assuming nothing is actually wrong, it will probably cost

 

[Cirrus]

I'd charge that just for the board Dave!

 

[monkey5]

hi ballamory,

i think maybe you would need a EICR, basically a test of the electrical installation, obviously i havent seen it but doubt it would need a full rewire. the lights are fine without an earth IF all fittings are class 2 (plastic). where abouts are you am sure one of the good memebers of the forum would be close by.

wayne

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:52 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:50 ----------

others type faster than me!

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as others have said a new board and bonding would be highly recommended especially if other kitchen work is being done.

 

[ballamory]

Hello all,

Thanks for so many quick replies.

The builder had prepared me for a certain amount of electrical work as part of the kitchen work, I was expecting around 5-600 pounds for replacing the fuse board and some electrical work in the kitchen, but from a brief survey on the Internet a full rewire looks like it might come in at

 

[Zeespark]

Why not ask an electrician to run a single earth cable to each light switch and fixture?

AndyGuinness

 

[betty swollocks]

if it were me i would replace the consumer unit, install bonding to gas/water change all light fittings to plastic, install a new ringmain into the kitchen for the re-fit and install smoke alarms up and downstairs

all for around half the rewire price

assuming that no other issues are found or exist

 

[batty]

Generally with properties of this age not only the lighting will not be adequate due to no circuit protective conductor also you will find there will not be enough sockets for modern living which in a rented property could be a safety issue. Did you not get a survey done on the property before you brought it and please don't say lighting rings as lighting is wired in radial circuits and not rings.

 

[peebo]

upgrade your bonding

fit new cu

fit class 2 fittings

and dont pay more than

 

[steptoe]

my issue would be the lifespan of the install,

if its original, as appears to be the case, then we have a 50 year old system in place,

a re-wire would be my thoughts on the prudent measure,

bearing in mind I am saying this blind,

it may be quite a lot more than you were hoping to pay at this stage, but as you are already renovating, I think you will find it will work out a considerable amount cheaper in the long run to have it done now rather than at a later stage.

 

[loonytoon]

Why not ask an electrician to run a single earth cable to each light switch and fixture?AndyGuinness

If your going to go to the effort of doing this, you might as well run a 1.0mm instead.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Hello all,I'm currently renovating a house for the rental market, and I'm about to have the kitchen rebuilt. The builder has said that some electrical work needs doing in the house to support the new kitchen, so we asked an electrician to pop around today and take a look.

The house dates from the early 1960s, and from looking at the (rather antiquated) original fuse box and unscrewing one of lighting switches, the electrician essentially seems to think the house needs a complete rewire. This is because he discovered that the lighting ring is not earthed, which he believes should be completely replaced in order to get an electrical safety certificate. He's also proposing to run new sockets to each room in the house, along the corners of the rooms.

Whilst I am happy to get some work done on the electrical side, the renovation is already costing more than I'd hoped, so I'd rather avoid any unnecessary expenses. Although I haven't received a quote yet from him, a complete rewiring sounds like it going to be expensive.

From a bit of research on the Internet, it sounds as though an electrical safety certificate isn't actually a legal requirement from landlords at the moment, although I do understand landlords have an obligation to provide a safe property for people to live in.

What I'd like to know is:

Is it essential to replace the wiring on the lighting ring, in other words is the exisiting ring potentially unsafe by modern standards?

Does the absence of an earth in the lighting ring imply the sockets are also unearthed? He didn't actually check those. If the sockets turns out to be earthed, why would they need replacing?

What sort of sum of money would be resonable to do these tasks?

If money is such a big issue Why not do the cheapest option and not upgrade your kitchen either????

Ahhhh..

of course..

YOU CAN SEE THE KITCHEN...

you only see how bad the wiring really is when either:-

1/ The house burns down...

2/ Someone gets a fatal electric shock..

3/ You have a formal inspection carried out on the property to get a true evaluation of the safety of the cables, their insulation, polarity, all earthing, protective measures etc..

 

[shed69]

Don't even need to look at this house, it's a rewire all day long and any spark worth his salt should and by the sounds of it has told you this, it's not about getting taken for a ride every single time a tradesmen walks through your door, some are giving you their honest opinion ...... No earths in lights and no bonding, highly likely it's 40-50 year old wiring.... Is it black rubber like cable ? Are the switches brown and round? Are the sockets (or the 1 in each room!!) on the skirting?? All signs my friend to get it done now ... As for safety, you have a duty of care as a landlord ... Get it Rewired and sleep knowing you've done the right thing.... Oh, and get some mains smokes in too..... Good luck...

 

[Theorysparky]

I will be blunt..........

rewire it

dont patch it up

spend 2.5k and get it done and forget about it

ballamory....fair play to you for coming on the forum to ask the questions

obviously you are in it to make money but patching up a 50 year old installation is a false economy

if i went to your property to fix ,,,say the lighting ,,,,,then back next month the sockets it wont be long before 2.5k is eaten up..(bit of an exageration on my prices but you get the point)

I go to loads of rental properties where landlords want the minimum done and in the end they come unstuck,,,the sockets, light fittings etc are so old that it becomes unrentable or the rent is so low you only get the lower end of tenants

sometimes a lick of paint is not enough

Please get a few quotes in then come back to us for any further advice......there may be some of us close by if you need some decent sparkies

 

[Guy]

You are stressing about money, we all do it! Learn from your experience, your money calculations will be better next time, but get your PRIORITIES right, get it inspected.

 

[Theorysparky]

i have an issue then with having an inspection and wasting

 

[Guy]

There is a thread running at the moment 'Does a periodic inspection report have to be done to 17th edition requirements' the landlord here mentions that the university whose students he lets to demand an inspection to be carried out every 3years, they obviously deem it to be very important.

 

[Megaohm7]

I looked at a house recently which didn't have no cpc's on the lighting circuits as it was pre 1966. The property was going to be rented out and a new board was going to be fitted and all the bonding brought up to spec. I done an insulation resistance test on the circuits and the lowest reading I got was 122 Mohms which was on the immersion circuit. I ensured that only class 2 fittings were used on the lighting circuits and a relevant sticker placed on the CU stating that the lighting circuits didn't have a CPC. It's all you can do to cover your backside. You can only advise on rewires but sometimes just because the house is old doesn't automatically mean that the wiring needs replacing. It would need testing though to prove it's servicability.