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Malarky

EICR - C1 x1 + C2 x2 Please help!

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Malarky

Hello Everyone,

EICR has been done for a house we want to buy.  The seller said he can't remember any electrical work being done during the 25 years he's lived there.  Odd.  Now we know why his memory has (selectively?) failed him...  report is unsatisfactory.  I've been trying to understand what the obs mean, haven't yet spoken to the bloke who did the EICR (will do on Monday!) starting to panic it is very bad report and will be too expensive (seller has already refused to budge asking price on other issues so I imagine if it's expensive I'll have to walk away from the purchase).

 

I'm aware C1 and C2 need fixing now, to obtain a 'satisfactory'.  Please could someone reading help me understand what needs to be done and how much it could cost?!  It's in Sandridge, just outside St Albans, Herts.  This is our first purchase, we've been saving for nearly 20 years (yes!) and are buying an unmodernised 1970 built 3-bed semi.  Yes it is St Albans but not everyone is minted (just sayin' 😉)

 

C1 - Exposed live parts that are accessible to touch, such as live conductors have no (or damaged) insulation - kitchen  Obviously, need to know what and where.

 

C2 - Class 1 fittings and switches are not earthed  -  what does class 1 mean?

C2 - Absence of supplementary bonding where required, such as location containing bath or shower.

C2 - Fire risk from lamps exceeding the maximum rated wattage for the luminaire or placed too close to combustible materials.

C2 - Absence of a circuit protective conductor for a circuit, other than a lighting circuit, supplying Class 1 equipment.

C2 - Insulation resistance of less than 1m between live conductors connected together and Earth, when measured at the consumer unit with all final circuits connected.

C2 - Earth fault loop impedance value greater than that required for operation of the protective device within the time prescribed.

C2 - Existing RCD is faulty and not operating correctly under test conditions.

 

FI - Inadequate cross-sectional area of main protective bonking conductor where the conductor is less than 6mm2

FI - Earth conduct readings on main ring are too high - FI required

 

There is a long list of C3s too.    

 

Summary states:  This installation is aged and requires updating to match current regulations.  A full re-wire should be considered.  Fire risk assessment :  there is mains powered smoke alarm installed, the fuse-board isn't fire rated and the existing down-lights are not fire rated.  (Building survey also mentioned the down-lights in the kitchen - original 70s and need replacing).

 

Please help!

Kind regards,  

Anna

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Murdoch

In a detached, or semi detached property, there is no requirement for fire rated down lights 

 

the fuseboard does not have to be fire retardant, but again this probably needs to be done 

 

the C1 and C2 codes seem reasonable for a house of that age, so a rewire  of the lighting circuit should be undertaken in the near future.

 

most of these issues could be 25 years old - my advice to you would be to get a very rough price for the remedial work and try and get it off the product purchase price , plus an allowance for making good etc

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Andy™
21 minutes ago, ASethSmith said:

😉

 

C1 - Exposed live parts that are accessible to touch, such as live conductors have no (or damaged) insulation - kitchen  Obviously, need to know what and where. thatll be something live & exposed

 

C2 - Class 1 fittings and switches are not earthed  -  what does class 1 mean? class 1 requires an earth. usually metallic fittings. if there is a fault, the earth offers it a path to trip the MCB/RCD. in this case, its fault path will be through whoever touches it. potentially instant death.

C2 - Absence of supplementary bonding where required, such as location containing bath or shower.no bonding in bathroom. required by a previous edition, not required by current if some other conditions are met but thats unlikely

C2 - Fire risk from lamps exceeding the maximum rated wattage for the luminaire or placed too close to combustible materials. simple fix, change the lamps to correct wattage

C2 - Absence of a circuit protective conductor for a circuit, other than a lighting circuit, supplying Class 1 equipment. common in older houses not to have an earth on the lights, but this indicates something else

C2 - Insulation resistance of less than 1m between live conductors connected together and Earth, when measured at the consumer unit with all final circuits connected.either he's missed unplugging something during the test, or there is a faulty cable / cables. potentially caused by water damage, but its a sign the cables are failing

C2 - Earth fault loop impedance value greater than that required for operation of the protective device within the time prescribed.device may not trip in time. may need a different rating breaker fitted

C2 - Existing RCD is faulty and not operating correctly under test conditions.new RCD required, although some fauts (such as insulation above) can cause them to not operate correctly

 

FI - Inadequate cross-sectional area of main protective bonking conductor where the conductor is less than 6mm2 easy fix,install a new bonding conductor

FI - Earth conduct readings on main ring are too high - FI required could be proprty wired in conduit with high earth loop. may be able to cover with an RCD

 

There is a long list of C3s too.    

 

Summary states:  This installation is aged and requires updating to match current regulations.  A full re-wire should be considered id agree with that bit.  Fire risk assessment :  there is mains powered smoke alarm installed not covered by 7671 so irrelevant to the report, the fuse-board isn't fire rated no need for it to be and the existing down-lights are not fire ratednot required unless in a barrier between fire compartments.  (Building survey also mentioned the down-lights in the kitchen - original 70s and need replacing).

 

Please help!

Kind regards,  

Anna

 

see red above

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ProDave

Class 1 means metal switches or light fittings.  It looks like the house has no earth on the lighting circuit.

 

Options:

 

Change ALL metal light fittings and light switches back to plastic

Rewire the light circuit (probably best in the long term)

Buy expensive metal class 2 light fittings that don't need an earth

 

Live exposed parts might be simple to fix.

 

Replacing faulty RCD is easy

 

A consumer unit change to the latest type would obviate the need for cross bonding, but will require the faults on some circuit to be found and corrected.

 

This is obviously an old house that needs some work. I suspect a LOT else needs updating as well as the electrics. I assume you are buying it as a "dooer upper" so you should have a budget to bring it up to standard.

 

The existing install has probably not killed anyone in the last 25 years, it is unlikely to do so (unless you find those exposed live parts) so unless it is a mortgage condition you can probably move in then get the work done when you are ready.

Edited by ProDave

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Malarky

Thank you for your very sound and useful advice Murdoch, Andy and ProDave.  Yes indeed, the house needs updating and we do have a budget but it's for the  30 yr old flat roof on the back extension which needs doing immediately!   We were planning to live with the 70s kitchen,  Artex etc etc while we update it bit by bit.  Yes Murdoch,  I agree about a price for the remedial work and the issue is going to be negotiating a reduction in the purchase price as the seller has been very difficult about this so far on other issues.  

 

Can't thank you all enough for the advice.  Very much appreciated.

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ProDave

Chances are it will have been valued to take into account the things like the knackered flat roof so you may find there is little scope for negotiation.

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septiclecky
7 hours ago, ASethSmith said:

Hello Everyone,

EICR has been done for a house we want to buy.  The seller said he can't remember any electrical work being done during the 25 years he's lived there.  Odd.  Now we know why his memory has (selectively?) failed him...  report is unsatisfactory.  I've been trying to understand what the obs mean, haven't yet spoken to the bloke who did the EICR (will do on Monday!) starting to panic it is very bad report and will be too expensive (seller has already refused to budge asking price on other issues so I imagine if it's expensive I'll have to walk away from the purchase).

 

I'm aware C1 and C2 need fixing now, to obtain a 'satisfactory'.  Please could someone reading help me understand what needs to be done and how much it could cost?!  It's in Sandridge, just outside St Albans, Herts.  This is our first purchase, we've been saving for nearly 20 years (yes!) and are buying an unmodernised 1970 built 3-bed semi.  Yes it is St Albans but not everyone is minted (just sayin' 😉)

 

C1 - Exposed live parts that are accessible to touch, such as live conductors have no (or damaged) insulation - kitchen  Obviously, need to know what and where.

 

C2 - Class 1 fittings and switches are not earthed  -  what does class 1 mean?

C2 - Absence of supplementary bonding where required, such as location containing bath or shower.

C2 - Fire risk from lamps exceeding the maximum rated wattage for the luminaire or placed too close to combustible materials.

C2 - Absence of a circuit protective conductor for a circuit, other than a lighting circuit, supplying Class 1 equipment.

C2 - Insulation resistance of less than 1m between live conductors connected together and Earth, when measured at the consumer unit with all final circuits connected.

C2 - Earth fault loop impedance value greater than that required for operation of the protective device within the time prescribed.

C2 - Existing RCD is faulty and not operating correctly under test conditions.

 

FI - Inadequate cross-sectional area of main protective bonking conductor where the conductor is less than 6mm2

FI - Earth conduct readings on main ring are too high - FI required

 

There is a long list of C3s too.    

 

Summary states:  This installation is aged and requires updating to match current regulations.  A full re-wire should be considered.  Fire risk assessment :  there is mains powered smoke alarm installed, the fuse-board isn't fire rated and the existing down-lights are not fire rated.  (Building survey also mentioned the down-lights in the kitchen - original 70s and need replacing).

 

Please help!

Kind regards,  

Anna

 

 

Sorry but this has nothing to do with you  if he doesn't want to wear a condom

Edited by septiclecky

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binky

Interesting that you have an RCD at all, that would not have been installed in the 70's. 

 

The insuation resistance being low could easily be a gadget like an aerial booster in the attic. Overall it seems the tester is being a little overzealous in my opinion. Cabling from that era should still be servicable, just about. I would suggest you up-date as you improve the house - tends to be more expensive that way, but breaks cost down, and saves damage to decor in every room that you have to live with until you can afford to do more work.

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Badger

Could it in fact be a voltage trip from the eighties and not an RCD at all 

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Sidewinder

Be careful of the Artex as it may well (will probably) contain asbestos!

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Sharpend

Find another house? 

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Malarky

Thanks for all the replies.   Would q like a different house but nothing for miles (kids still at primary and secondary) has same amount of space for the price.  70s houses might be poorly insulated but the rooms and windows are lovely and big.  Completing on the purchase in September and decided we're shelving plans to replace the ageing flat roof on the back extension {not leaking... yet} and going for a complete re-wire before we move in.  The idea of doing it bit by bit with both of us working full-time, 2 kids etc doesn't appeal.        Got one quote, will post the specs if anyone is interested in the work?   3 bed semi with single story back extension in Hertfordshire.       Sorry about the typo... :Blushing    

 

Cheers!

Anna

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Evans Electric

I was going to say  "Look at somewhere else  "  too  .    I understand you are on a budget and its difficult  but as said above , there,s probably a lot more to be put right . 

C1's on an EICR  are worrying .   Without seeing the place , obviously ,   I'd be looking at a rewire .  

 

We'd be interested in how you get on .               If theres no Forum member in your area ,  look for electricians  belonging to  NICEIC , ELECSA, NAPITT, STROMA , ECA  

Also ask for an itemised quote to save later disagreements .    

The majority of electricians are safety minded and work to our strict set of regulations  .    

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Andy™
4 hours ago, Evans Electric said:

 If theres no Forum member in your area ,  look for electricians  belonging to  NICEIC , ELECSA, NAPITT, STROMA , ECA 

 

i know when im not wanted...

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Blue Duck

@SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH is in Barnet, not far from you @ASethSmith

 

:)

 

 

 

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Evans Electric
2 hours ago, Andy™ said:

 

i know when im not wanted...

 

2 hours ago, Andy™ said:

 If theres no Forum member in your area ,  look for electricians  belonging to  NICEIC , ELECSA, NAPITT, STROMA , ECA 

Or Andy  from the North .    :Sorry:

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binky

Acropyl will sort the flat roof out for a few years - fibre reinforced roof 'paint'. 

 

As a 70's house and given the expexted life of PVC cables to be around 50-60 years, a re-wire is probably a good idea.

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SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH

I thought earthing in lighting circuits & bonding came in with the 14th edition, which was 1966. It seems strange a 70s house has none ?

Biggest problem in 70s houses is asbestos artex.

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samyusuf

C1 means that you have old lighting and other circuits in your home and according to that person if it is correct that there is no electrical work in house since last 25 years then obviously its need to go for Class 2 and needs to be rewire and also install smoke alarms and other security alarms as well. I suggest you to rewire your lighting circuits to be safe from future damage.

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Murdoch
4 minutes ago, samyusuf said:

C1 means that you have old lighting and other circuits in your home and according to that person if it is correct that there is no electrical work in house since last 25 years then obviously its need to go for Class 2 and needs to be rewire and also install smoke alarms and other security alarms as well. I suggest you to rewire your lighting circuits to be safe from future damage.

 

 

I think you you need to brush up on your EICR codes .....

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kerching
40 minutes ago, samyusuf said:

C1 means that you have old lighting and other circuits in your home and according to that person if it is correct that there is no electrical work in house since last 25 years then obviously its need to go for Class 2 and needs to be rewire and also install smoke alarms and other security alarms as well. I suggest you to rewire your lighting circuits to be safe from future damage.

Please explain as I am fairly new to the trade?

 

:popcorn

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