Advice In Adding Extra Sockets

[Essex1]

It is there only for additional protection and shoukd not be used as a get out of jail card for a poorly designed installation. Yes most Circuits will require RCD protection in a domestic setting but to just say RCD everything is lazy IMO.

 

[Essex1]

Post #5. Last sentence.

No one should do a DB change without first ensuring the installation is safe to re-connect after. You cannot just go in and say just replace the board without first ascertaining what the condition of the installation is first.

Since when was surface mini trunking a bodge? Perfectly acceptable and economic given the fact a re-wire is a year away.

RCD protection is additional protection. If you don't need it don't fit it. RCDs are not the be all and end all of domestic installations. I did also say to fit RCD sockets as these would be required.

How does installing RCD protection make the installation safer? For all we know there could be vital medical equipment that put on an RCD may put someone's life in danger?

Part P has a 28 day notice period. How can any reputable electrician happily sign of an installation cert and notify LABC knowing full well what they have just re-connected is unsafe (because we are assuming a re-wire is required here)

If It needs to be done in stages then I recommend to start with the wiring first and leave the DB until last. This way LABC only needs to be notified once the DB is complete and all the corcuits are live.

Then you have the issue of non-combustible domestic CUs as of Jan 2016. If a new plastic one was fitted and the re-wire completed next year then the CU would not comply.

 

[ProDave]

Then you have the issue of non-combustible domestic CUs as of Jan 2016. If a new plastic one was fitted and the re-wire completed next year then the CU would not comply.

The CU has to comply at the time it is fitted. No even that is not true, it has to comply at the time the installation is designed.

If you later add circuits to a CU you do not have to change it for a non combustible one.

How does installing RCD protection make the installation safer? For all we know there could be vital medical equipment that put on an RCD may put someone's life in danger?

If you cannot figure out how adding an rcd makes an installation safer then perhaps you are in the wrong business?

If It needs to be done in stages then I recommend to start with the wiring first and leave the DB until last. This way LABC only needs to be notified once the DB is complete and all the corcuits are live.

So you would rewire in stages, connecting the new circuits that according to the regs need rcd protection to the old fuse box with no rcd?

 

[Sidewinder]

How does installing RCD protection make the installation safer? For all we know there could be vital medical equipment that put on an RCD may put someone's life in danger?...

If, you look into it, a LOT of medical equipment requires RCD protection.

Certainly, that which you would likely find in a domestic dwelling house.

Which will also be unlikely to be life support equipment.

 

[Essex1]

Ok. So how do you notify a CU change with all the outgoing circuits unsatisfactory???

 

[Badger]

surely alot of the medical equipment has battery back up with power loss alarms included to warn of power outage.

 

[Essex1]

The CU has to comply at the time it is fitted. No even that is not true, it has to comply at the time the installation is designed.

If you later add circuits to a CU you do not have to change it for a non combustible one.

If you cannot figure out how adding an rcd makes an installation safer then perhaps you are in the wrong business?

So you would rewire in stages, connecting the new circuits that according to the regs need rcd protection to the old fuse box with no rcd?

I did clearly say that I would connect up at the end of the re-wire so no I would not connect to the existing board.

If, you look into it, a LOT of medical equipment requires RCD protection.

Certainly, that which you would likely find in a domestic dwelling house.

Which will also be unlikely to be life support equipment.

A lot but not all. My point was every circuit/installation shoukd be based on it's merit not just a flat out RCD everything approach.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Ok. So how do you notify a CU change with all the outgoing circuits unsatisfactory???

Exactly the same way you can notify a single alteration, say new circuit or bathroom alteration, without having to rewire a whole property. (note who says all the outgoing circuits are unsatisfactory?). If you look at the model forms in the appendix of BS7671 they have boxes for the extent of the installation covered by the certificate and any departures, permitted exceptions or deviations from BS7671. Where necessary additional sheets can be included with the certificate detailing any such limitations, the next inspection date can also suitably be reduced from the typical 10 years. Whereas a complete rewire or new installation would not normally have any need or requirement for deviations, additions and alterations to existing installations may well have, hence the boxes on the model forms. Connecting older wiring into a new fuse box, where there is generally far more room to work inside, is by far the more logical and practical method than trying to get new wiring into an old fuse box, where space is limited, terminating screws may be worn or have damaged heads making suitable torque on the terminations difficult. On a limited budget, stage by stage rewire, the fuse box is the most sensible place to start. The work only needs notifying once the work is complete, which then begs the question when is the work complete. I am sure there are many refurbishment projects going on that span weeks or months waiting for other trades to complete their work, even though a physical fuse box may be sitting there providing some power to circuits to allow the work to continue.

Just to confirm to our OP Wuforn, if you do want to organise a staged rewire, having the fuse box changed before the rest of the rewiring is perfectly acceptable and the overall safety of the installation will not be compromised.

Doc H.

 

[ProDave]

+1 Doc has a great skill of explaining things very clearly indeed.

 

[steptoe]

Essex1,  do you understand how PartP notification works,?

I changed my CU over 6years ago, I haven't notified it yet, why?

I'm in the middle of rewiring my house, it only requires to be notified within 28days of completion,  not within 28days of commencement. 

 

[Blue Duck]

surely alot of the medical equipment has battery back up with power loss alarms included to warn of power outage.

Yes... this is correct very annoying if you have to work on the circuit with said medical devices plugged in!

back OT: @ op sorry this has turned into another bun fight. some valid points though.

I normally find that once you have brought circuits up to standard you may have well upgraded the DB for a bit more. fortunately were in limbo at the moment and can still fit plastic "fuseboxes" and the wholesalers and sheds are dropping them like hot **** so prices are low, now would be a good time to get this done.

IMO

Essex1, do you understand how PartP notification works,?

I changed my CU over 6years ago, I haven't notified it yet, why?

I'm in the middle of rewiring my house, it only requires to be notified within 28days of completion, not within 28days of commencement.

me too :innocent

 

[Doc Hudson]

Assuming you intend to live at this property for quite a few more years and you do choose to go down the replace fuse box route, don't just get one with the same number of circuits as the existing box and don't just get one that is a cheap offer bargain. Have an evaluation of what circuits you have at the moment and what other electrical alterations you may be planning in a few years. Make sure you get a big enough fuse box for your immediate requirements and spare fuse slots for future alterations. You may want to split some of the existing circuits for convenience.  Older properties may only have one light circuit or only one socket circuit. It is not very good practice to fit a fuse box that has every circuit position used right from the start. One or two blank unused slots will add minimal costs to a fuse box upgrade, but can save a lot of time and money later on when you find you need an additional circuit added.

Doc H.

 

[Essex1]

Exactly the same way you can notify a single alteration, say new circuit or bathroom alteration, without having to rewire a whole property. (note who says all the outgoing circuits are unsatisfactory?). If you look at the model forms in the appendix of BS7671 they have boxes for the extent of the installation covered by the certificate and any departures, permitted exceptions or deviations from BS7671. Where necessary additional sheets can be included with the certificate detailing any such limitations, the next inspection date can also suitably be reduced from the typical 10 years. Whereas a complete rewire or new installation would not normally have any need or requirement for deviations, additions and alterations to existing installations may well have, hence the boxes on the model forms. Connecting older wiring into a new fuse box, where there is generally far more room to work inside, is by far the more logical and practical method than trying to get new wiring into an old fuse box, where space is limited, terminating screws may be worn or have damaged heads making suitable torque on the terminations difficult. On a limited budget, stage by stage rewire, the fuse box is the most sensible place to start. The work only needs notifying once the work is complete, which then begs the question when is the work complete. I am sure there are many refurbishment projects going on that span weeks or months waiting for other trades to complete their work, even though a physical fuse box may be sitting there providing some power to circuits to allow the work to continue.

Just to confirm to our OP Wuforn, if you do want to organise a staged rewire, having the fuse box changed before the rest of the rewiring is perfectly acceptable and the overall safety of the installation will not be compromised.

Doc H.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.  In my mind deviations from BS7671 must meet the same level of compliance as BS7671.  Not a license to hand over a non-compliant installation.  

As for a re-wire having a never ending date.  Yes if you are the client and contractor but not what should be advised in my mind.

 

[Doc Hudson]

No one is suggesting a license to hand over a non-compliant installation. We have to remember BS7671 is guidance for good practice and by its fundamental principals is there to protect people, property, and livestock, it is non statutory. A competent person should be able to evaluate the risks and dangers present at an installation they have been asked to work on. A contractor cannot force any customer to purchase work off them to amend an installation, it is the clients choice. Where it is evident that some improvement work is needed, but a customer has a limited budget we all have to asses the pro's and con's of the options available and a balance of common sense needs to be applied. Options typically are; Leave everything till the customer has more money. Replace circuits and/or fuse box in stages over a reasonable time. Do a full rewire immediately insisting the customer has some form of loan or credit arrangement to obtain funds. I am clear in my mind which option offers the best solution to improve the protection to the people property and livestock where the installation is situated. If wiring is a little dubious then a modern fuse box will provide far more protection than leaving an old style unit in place. Clearly you think older fuse boxes are best kept in use as long as possible so I will agree to disagree with your opinion.

Doc H.  

 

[Essex1]

No one is suggesting a license to hand over a non-compliant installation. We have to remember BS7671 is guidance for good practice and by its fundamental principals is there to protect people, property, and livestock, it is non statutory. A competent person should be able to evaluate the risks and dangers present at an installation they have been asked to work on. A contractor cannot force any customer to purchase work off them to amend an installation, it is the clients choice. Where it is evident that some improvement work is needed, but a customer has a limited budget we all have to asses the pro's and con's of the options available and a balance of common sense needs to be applied. Options typically are; Leave everything till the customer has more money. Replace circuits and/or fuse box in stages over a reasonable time. Do a full rewire immediately insisting the customer has some form of loan or credit arrangement to obtain funds. I am clear in my mind which option offers the best solution to improve the protection to the people property and livestock where the installation is situated. If wiring is a little dubious then a modern fuse box will provide far more protection than leaving an old style unit in place. Clearly you think older fuse boxes are best kept in use as long as possible so I will agree to disagree with your opinion.

Doc H.  

There is nothing wrong with 'older style' fuse boxes.  Many fully comply with BS7671.  It is additional RCD protection that is the issue here not the age of the distribution board.

 

[Doc Hudson]

There is nothing wrong with 'older style' fuse boxes.  Many fully comply with BS7671.  It is additional RCD protection that is the issue here not the age of the distribution board.

Nor is there anything wrong with older style wiring, at lot of which still complies with BS7671, as such a replacement fuse box can be easily certified and notified as fully compliant, unlike your assumptions that a fuse box alone cannot be done and you must do wiring first. You do appear to be both contradicting yourself and starting to hijack the thread from the original question about adding a few sockets. If you wish to discuss this topic further please could start your own thread and topic about what does or doesn't comply and how you can certify accurately and I am sure our other members will be willing add their comments to help clear up your misunderstanding. The concept is functionality, safety, ease of operation and an overall best solution to protect people property and livestock. (I can move the off topic posts to a new thread so that the OP only needs to read answers that directly relate to his question.)

Doc H.

 

[Essex1]

My hero 

 

[roys]

Think this might be back on topic Think other people may have touched on it.

Keep original fuse board and circuits "as is" until the rewire money is in place.

Wire in a new circuit for the sockets in the bedroom, Couple of Henley Service connectors onto the tails, fit new consumer unit which is suitable for when full rewire takes place, and connect up the new bedroom circuit to that.

So old fuse board and old circuits remain in place in the short term until rewire, and just issue cert for new circuit complete with it's "own" consumer unit.