Riggy
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Indeed, that's not what you said though is it: "The EIC can only be issued by the person conducting the installation work."
Arrg.. Building Control...
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green-hornet
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Just to clarify and to avoid any futher confusion I would like to say this.
There are two types of electrical installation certificates.
A, Full certificate with seperate sections for a1,design a2, construction and a3, testing.
B, combined where all parts are conducted by one person.
Type A, is normaly used on larger projects where electrical design enginneers would be responsible for the electrical installation design and they would sign only that part of the final certificate.
The subcontractor responsible for the constuction signs the second section
and the tester signs the third section.
All three parties must sign the declaration as a commitment to following all the relevant regs etc.
There is no reason why this type of certificate could not be issued for a domestic property, and three seperate parties could be responsible for the whole installation.
The tester nor any other party is responsible for issuing the certificate on their own, it is joint, and it is the person who orders the work who has to ensure it is completed.
Type B, is the one which some of you may be getting confused with?
This is where one individual is responsible for all three parts design, construction and testing.
If you can not get a signature for any part of the EIC then the EIC is void and useless, a PIR is not a replacement for a EIC and contravenes the rules under the wiring regulations as to its use.
However just to finish up you can issue an EIC, even if you where not responsible for the construction or design, providing that you have the signatures of those who did.
There are two types of electrical installation certificates.
A, Full certificate with seperate sections for a1,design a2, construction and a3, testing.
B, combined where all parts are conducted by one person.
Type A, is normaly used on larger projects where electrical design enginneers would be responsible for the electrical installation design and they would sign only that part of the final certificate.
The subcontractor responsible for the constuction signs the second section
and the tester signs the third section.
All three parties must sign the declaration as a commitment to following all the relevant regs etc.
There is no reason why this type of certificate could not be issued for a domestic property, and three seperate parties could be responsible for the whole installation.
The tester nor any other party is responsible for issuing the certificate on their own, it is joint, and it is the person who orders the work who has to ensure it is completed.
Type B, is the one which some of you may be getting confused with?
This is where one individual is responsible for all three parts design, construction and testing.
If you can not get a signature for any part of the EIC then the EIC is void and useless, a PIR is not a replacement for a EIC and contravenes the rules under the wiring regulations as to its use.
However just to finish up you can issue an EIC, even if you where not responsible for the construction or design, providing that you have the signatures of those who did.
He often is , makes you sick , don't it !!! 
Blue Fox
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Having read this thread I wonder why part p and certifying etc doesn't work, the system is nice and simple for people to follow, I really can't see why people don't bother following it and get the cowboys in or do a job poorly themselves when it so easy to do/get the job done properly!
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Money.
money/lack of knowledge of electrics
I can never get my head round the "Notifying" bit TBH. If I had a builder/plumber in to refurb my bathroom (no electrics) is it notified to LBC ? I think not. A chippy mate tarted our kitchen up recently, he didn't dash home and "notify" it. Both special locations.
Am I the only person who finds it strange that all these electrical jobs are stored on your Part P provider's data base and your local council's data base ? And your own paper record in the cert book.
Whats all that about ??
Am I the only person who finds it strange that all these electrical jobs are stored on your Part P provider's data base and your local council's data base ? And your own paper record in the cert book.
Whats all that about ??
green-hornet
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Competent person schemes were introduced by the Government to allow
individuals and enterprises to self-certify that their work complies with
Building Regulations as an alternative to submitting a building notice. The
principles of self-certification are based on giving people who are competent
in their field the ability to self-certify that their work complies with Building
Regulations without the need to submit a building notice and thus incurring
local authority inspections or fees. It is hoped that moving towards selfcertification
will significantly enhance compliance with the requirements of
Building Regulations, reduce costs for firms joining recognised schemes, and
promote training and competence within the industry. It should also help
tackle the problem of
individuals and enterprises to self-certify that their work complies with
Building Regulations as an alternative to submitting a building notice. The
principles of self-certification are based on giving people who are competent
in their field the ability to self-certify that their work complies with Building
Regulations without the need to submit a building notice and thus incurring
local authority inspections or fees. It is hoped that moving towards selfcertification
will significantly enhance compliance with the requirements of
Building Regulations, reduce costs for firms joining recognised schemes, and
promote training and competence within the industry. It should also help
tackle the problem of
paul b b
Well-known member
no one will get killed from the paint on you kitchen units!. having just got my quals the testing seems ott at the start, but the more i think of it i can see why it is so important.
also I am starting to think that the insurance companys will start refusing to pay up if there is no cert for the wiring that started the fire. I am sure part of this cert'ing is a long term insurance thing.
polarity
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The plot thickens...
Finally spoke to the BC Manager, and apparently when he wrote
OR - "Submit a Building Notice application for the proposed work and confirm on the application form that you will appoint a suitably qualified electrical contractor who can certify compliance with BS 7671."
He didn't actually mean it, what he meant was get a suitably qualified electrical contractor who is not Part P to do the job, and pay us to check his qualifications!
Apparently there is no route for someone to look at what I have done, test it and say it is OK. - Though he thinks thats actually what he would like to see happen.
Anyway, he has asked for a copy of my diagram, will have a chat with the eletrician involved and I think he will make an exception for me...
Ah well!
Finally spoke to the BC Manager, and apparently when he wrote
OR - "Submit a Building Notice application for the proposed work and confirm on the application form that you will appoint a suitably qualified electrical contractor who can certify compliance with BS 7671."
He didn't actually mean it, what he meant was get a suitably qualified electrical contractor who is not Part P to do the job, and pay us to check his qualifications!
Apparently there is no route for someone to look at what I have done, test it and say it is OK. - Though he thinks thats actually what he would like to see happen.
Anyway, he has asked for a copy of my diagram, will have a chat with the eletrician involved and I think he will make an exception for me...
Ah well!
It IS discretionary, on the part of BC & the sparx doing the testing.
GH - The plot is actually "thicker" than you painted it - There are also different EIC`s within the single signature / 3 signature forms.
You`ve ALSO got domestic EICs (DEIC), and "standard" EICs. (Standard are NOT necessarily 3 sig), I have 3 types of EIC here:
DEIC - single signature.
EIC - single signature.
EIC - multiple signature.
Just to "muddy the waters" a little more.
Why you should need to have different levels of information on the one versus the other, I don`t know
GH - The plot is actually "thicker" than you painted it - There are also different EIC`s within the single signature / 3 signature forms.
You`ve ALSO got domestic EICs (DEIC), and "standard" EICs. (Standard are NOT necessarily 3 sig), I have 3 types of EIC here:
DEIC - single signature.
EIC - single signature.
EIC - multiple signature.
Just to "muddy the waters" a little more.
Why you should need to have different levels of information on the one versus the other, I don`t know
spinlondon
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The IET produce two types of EIC.
The long(2) and the short(1).
The long one has separate sections for designer, installer and inspector.
The people who sign these parts do not have to be the people who actually did any of the work, they do however have to be responsible for the work.
The short form is used where one person is responsible for all aspects of design, installation and inspection.
The person signing does not have to actually have carried out any of the work, just be responsible for that work.
In the OP's case there is no reason why either form cannot be used.
The only critera for filling out a certificate or PIR form is that the person be competent. There is no requirement for the person to be qualified.
The qualified person can fill out and sign the test schedule, and the OP can with a little help fill out and sign the rest of the EIC.
If the long form is used, then the person doing the I&T may be willing to sign that part of the EIC, and the OP can sign the other parts.
There is no rule or regulation stopping someone from designing their own EIC.
The DEICs that KME has refered to are probablly issued by the NICEIC.
As I understand it all of the schemes produce their own certificates, not all of them have the same information. Some require ticks in boxes to confirm tests have been done and the results are satisfactory. Others require actual readings be noted.
When I posted earlier. "The EIC can only be issued by the person conducting the installation work."
I should have been more carefull in my wording, and I apologise for not being so.
The long(2) and the short(1).
The long one has separate sections for designer, installer and inspector.
The people who sign these parts do not have to be the people who actually did any of the work, they do however have to be responsible for the work.
The short form is used where one person is responsible for all aspects of design, installation and inspection.
The person signing does not have to actually have carried out any of the work, just be responsible for that work.
In the OP's case there is no reason why either form cannot be used.
The only critera for filling out a certificate or PIR form is that the person be competent. There is no requirement for the person to be qualified.
The qualified person can fill out and sign the test schedule, and the OP can with a little help fill out and sign the rest of the EIC.
If the long form is used, then the person doing the I&T may be willing to sign that part of the EIC, and the OP can sign the other parts.
There is no rule or regulation stopping someone from designing their own EIC.
The DEICs that KME has refered to are probablly issued by the NICEIC.
As I understand it all of the schemes produce their own certificates, not all of them have the same information. Some require ticks in boxes to confirm tests have been done and the results are satisfactory. Others require actual readings be noted.
When I posted earlier. "The EIC can only be issued by the person conducting the installation work."
I should have been more carefull in my wording, and I apologise for not being so.
ian932
Senior Member
And to have the insurance to do so.
PC Electrics
Well-known member
See Approved Document P, sections 1.28 and 1.29 under the heading 'Third Party Certification'
Freetrader
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Hi,
Building control will accept the C&G 2392, but the problem may come in getting on the course with out prerequites of at least 2330 level 2
food for thought
Building control will accept the C&G 2392, but the problem may come in getting on the course with out prerequites of at least 2330 level 2
food for thought
spinlondon
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I don't believe there is any requirement for insurance in BS7671.
Your correct, spin. They`re isn`t.
Also, as you correctly pointed out above, the DEIC is an NICEIC form, for DI`s
r.e the certs. It is worth noting that, if you are with the NIC, they won`t allow general DIs to issue non-domestic PIRs on their forms......
I only found that out during my annual chinwag with our area engineer.....
n.b. I don`t think an apology was necessary mate
Also, as you correctly pointed out above, the DEIC is an NICEIC form, for DI`s
r.e the certs. It is worth noting that, if you are with the NIC, they won`t allow general DIs to issue non-domestic PIRs on their forms......
I only found that out during my annual chinwag with our area engineer.....
n.b. I don`t think an apology was necessary mate
ian932
Senior Member
No there is not and I never said there was!! BS7671 like any BS or EN are only recommendations not law and would never recommend insurance requirements as they are technical documents. What I'm saying is your insurance company may not accept a negligence claim if you start signing a single person EIC when you did not undertake the design and install.
To issue PIR
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