Can an electrician legally turn off an installation that he/she considers to be dange
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I think the bottom line with this issue is...
There are ways and means of isolating an installation without actually removing the main supplier fuse.
As has been said already, removing bus-bars or physically disconnecting wires from MCB / RCBO terminal screws would achieve the objective.
As with other aspects of the regulation items requiring access by the use of a tool are considered to be out of the scope of ordinary persons, If you disconnect cables etc.. and put suitable waring notices & inform the client your bottom would be nicely covered IMHO!
Lets also consider another important fact....
On an installation that has some dangerous parts it is quite probable that it only affects part of the installation NOT the whole installation,
therefore more often than not it may be a case of just isolating certain circuits NOT the whole installation.
You also need to remember while you are working at a particular installation the duty of care for the electrics etc.. is passed to you..
BUT when you leave site you pass the duty of care back to the home owner (landlord or relevant company representative)
So as part of you passing over responsibility back to the client a written report of the defects you noted,
(preferably get the client to sign to say they have received a copy) would cover your responsibilities.
If the client is not immediately available I would probably write a letter And send it "Signed for Recored".
LEGALLY you have no power to do anything that a homeowner doesn't want you to do... as BS7671 is NON-Statutory!
Also a homeowner may claim they have safety or health essential services that MUST have power...
& cutting power from those could have worse implications!
put the kettle on
So......
Admin hasn't got the right options... :_| :_| :_|
we need a...
You have a Duty of Care to inform the client But you cannot Force them to do anything!
There are ways and means of isolating an installation without actually removing the main supplier fuse.
As has been said already, removing bus-bars or physically disconnecting wires from MCB / RCBO terminal screws would achieve the objective.
As with other aspects of the regulation items requiring access by the use of a tool are considered to be out of the scope of ordinary persons, If you disconnect cables etc.. and put suitable waring notices & inform the client your bottom would be nicely covered IMHO!
Lets also consider another important fact....
On an installation that has some dangerous parts it is quite probable that it only affects part of the installation NOT the whole installation,
therefore more often than not it may be a case of just isolating certain circuits NOT the whole installation.
You also need to remember while you are working at a particular installation the duty of care for the electrics etc.. is passed to you..
BUT when you leave site you pass the duty of care back to the home owner (landlord or relevant company representative)
So as part of you passing over responsibility back to the client a written report of the defects you noted,
(preferably get the client to sign to say they have received a copy) would cover your responsibilities.
If the client is not immediately available I would probably write a letter And send it "Signed for Recored".
LEGALLY you have no power to do anything that a homeowner doesn't want you to do... as BS7671 is NON-Statutory!
Also a homeowner may claim they have safety or health essential services that MUST have power...
& cutting power from those could have worse implications!
put the kettle on
So......
Admin hasn't got the right options... :_| :_| :_|
we need a...
You have a Duty of Care to inform the client But you cannot Force them to do anything!
not a non compliant install,
an install giving rise to an immediate danger to life.
Any competent person working on or inspecting a domestic dwelling for example , comes across a fault which could be potentially lethal to the occupier would feel the need to condemn the that part of the installation in a professional capacity . I am not sure legally where the competent person would stand though . On gas installations a notice placed on appliances to say they were unsafe to use I always thought that was illegal for an occupier to remove the notice and continue using without being made safe again by a competent person as the situation could be life threatening . Electrical installations is no different ! If nothing is in place so a competent person has the backing of the law behind Him/Her when they say in their professional opinion that an installation or part of it is dangerous/life threatening and isolates it for that reason then maybe it's about time there should be . :|
this is how i always understood it.
if you knew something was dangerous and didn't fix it at the insistence of the customer who then got killed/injured by this fault then i thought you could be classed as negligent due to your duty of care as a professional.
a1
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Right, I have deleted the old Poll, and started a new one from scratch.
Can you all re-cast your votes please? BUT, before you do, can you check the options and let me know if you would like to see another one.
Regards,
Admin.
Can you all re-cast your votes please? BUT, before you do, can you check the options and let me know if you would like to see another one.
Regards,
Admin.
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Applaud SmileyApplaud SmileyApplaud SmileyApplaud Smiley:x
How about an option:
"If the customer argues with my judgment I will drive a tank through their lounge!"
?
I think that happens quite often...:OBlushing;\
:coatput the kettle on
I've now changed my vote.....
to "I have a duty of care.......",,,,
BUT .. while I can't legally turn it off without their permission, I can refuse to re-energise if I've already started to do some work and found something dangerous!
to "I have a duty of care.......",,,,
BUT .. while I can't legally turn it off without their permission, I can refuse to re-energise if I've already started to do some work and found something dangerous!
Theorysparky
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i did a job a few years back where the shower had stopped working.
cutting to the chase the incoming tail had burnt out in the cu and was in a dangerous condition
although the rest of the house was still working i pulled the incomer as i could 'safely' isolate at the board.
it was a privately rented property and i informed the landlord of my actions and he fully accepted my decision.
Next day he was down to look at it before i swapped the cu
So it comes down to individuals choice
no-one would have argued with me in that situation
but then being ex-forces justifying a decision is run of the mill.
cutting to the chase the incoming tail had burnt out in the cu and was in a dangerous condition
although the rest of the house was still working i pulled the incomer as i could 'safely' isolate at the board.
it was a privately rented property and i informed the landlord of my actions and he fully accepted my decision.
Next day he was down to look at it before i swapped the cu
So it comes down to individuals choice
no-one would have argued with me in that situation
but then being ex-forces justifying a decision is run of the mill.
spinlondon
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Problem now, is that power, heating and water are considered to be Human rights. If you deprive anyone of access to one of them, you would be liable to prosecution. Would your opinion be enough of a defence?
Whilst you have a duty of care, to your customer, you have no legal authority do deny them their right to access power or heating. Even the suppliers don't have that authority now, without first undertaking certain protocols.
Consider if you were to take your car to Quick Fit to have the brakes checked, and they determined that the condition of the brakes were dangerous. If you then said alright, "I'll sort it out myself", or will take it to somewhere else to have the work done. Would Quick Fit then be right to refuse to give you back the car because it was in their opinion dangerous?
That's not really what I meant Spin...
What I mean't was that I wouldn't turn it back on,, but I wouldn't make it so that it couldn't be turned back on!
I'd obviously tell the client of the problem, the risks involved and give them an ELECTRICAL DANGER CERT
If they wanted to turn it back on after I've left then that's up to them
What I mean't was that I wouldn't turn it back on,, but I wouldn't make it so that it couldn't be turned back on!
I'd obviously tell the client of the problem, the risks involved and give them an ELECTRICAL DANGER CERT
If they wanted to turn it back on after I've left then that's up to them
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Concur:x
This is indeed a very important point..
especially where elderly, young children, disabled, long term sick, or persons with other special requirements....
I have a few elderly customer with these auto phone dialing emergency calling systems, bath lifts, stair lifts.. etc..
If your actions disable any such devices (or prevent re-charging of such devices), there could be some serious consequences...
As I said earlier.. in the real world there are probably very few situations where a whole installation is considered dangerous...
rather just one or more individual circuits that need sorting.
It would not IMHO be too hard to organise some safe circuits to keep part of an installation working,
whilst organising a work schedule to carry out remaining remedial work.
the elecsa danger report things inform you the consequences of turning off a installation and the fact you may be breaking the law.
if something went badly worng due to the installation not being energised you may well end up in court based on your opinion. imagine standing infront of a judge and saying 'i turned it off as i thought someone would get electrocuted immanently' customer says 'its been like that 20 years with no problem' i cant see many people sitting in that court room agreeing with you.
as spin and SL have said theres alot more to consider than the state of the installation.
if something went badly worng due to the installation not being energised you may well end up in court based on your opinion. imagine standing infront of a judge and saying 'i turned it off as i thought someone would get electrocuted immanently' customer says 'its been like that 20 years with no problem' i cant see many people sitting in that court room agreeing with you.
as spin and SL have said theres alot more to consider than the state of the installation.
green-hornet
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I voted and have not read through all the replies.
I voted NO because that was the question asked.
If you find a dangerous installation you have to call the dno, they are the only people who are allowed to disconnect from supply, they do this by removing the main supply fuse and resealing leaving a little cardboard tag on with the information required for reconnection.
I know this because I have had to do it in the past.
You have a moral duty of care to give as much information to the customer, but that information or advise is useless if you think that at any time the persons using that installation are at severe risk of death or injury.(Property is secondary).
Now I have posted I will read what people have said
I voted NO because that was the question asked.
If you find a dangerous installation you have to call the dno, they are the only people who are allowed to disconnect from supply, they do this by removing the main supply fuse and resealing leaving a little cardboard tag on with the information required for reconnection.
I know this because I have had to do it in the past.
You have a moral duty of care to give as much information to the customer, but that information or advise is useless if you think that at any time the persons using that installation are at severe risk of death or injury.(Property is secondary).
Now I have posted I will read what people have said
green-hornet
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Approved contractors have no legal right to isolate or disconnect any part of an electrical installation without the owners permission. (which is not going to be given).
If permission cannot be obtained to remove danger immediately, approved contractors should act without delay to minimise the danger so far as is reasonably practicable, such as by providing temporary barriers or enclosures for exposed live parts, posting danger notices etc
This was taken from the electrical danger notice form.
Interesting points here
1 you have no legal right
2 you can only advise and ask for permission
3 a simple do not use notice, could comply with your duty of care
4 the main one, whats the point in giving a danger notice if you can not take action to enforce that notice?
The police and fire brigade are not allowed to interfere with any electrical installation.
We had a call from the locals when a drug farm was found to make the installation safe we had to call the dno in because the supply was slugged from the mains.
If permission cannot be obtained to remove danger immediately, approved contractors should act without delay to minimise the danger so far as is reasonably practicable, such as by providing temporary barriers or enclosures for exposed live parts, posting danger notices etc
This was taken from the electrical danger notice form.
Interesting points here
1 you have no legal right
2 you can only advise and ask for permission
3 a simple do not use notice, could comply with your duty of care
4 the main one, whats the point in giving a danger notice if you can not take action to enforce that notice?
The police and fire brigade are not allowed to interfere with any electrical installation.
We had a call from the locals when a drug farm was found to make the installation safe we had to call the dno in because the supply was slugged from the mains.
sorry G-H,
but I think due to negligence claims then I would be disconnecting and worry about DNO later.
make an installation safe,
where in the regs (as everyone bangs on about) does it say you can leave an install unsafe?
EAW states that it MUST be left safe.
and that is LAW, unlike 7671
