Downlights OMG

[Robojin]

I was at the property to sort out a TV cabling solution, and the customer asked if I could look a a downlight in the kitchen that did not work, took the fitting out and found the the transformer had blown, as I'm looking at the hole I realise that this fitting had been installed touching a joist, so told them I would not replace unless it was moved.

While I'm looking at this fitting the husband (pensioner) asked if I was NICEIC certified, because he needed to know if it was safe to have loft insulation installed (I guess the insulation company had told him he needed an NIC contractor to check first, progress it seems)

I told him that as I needed to go up in the loft to check the TV aerial I'd cast an eye over the electrics, and venture an opinion on suitability

Sorry for the poor image, no flash on phone

Yes your eyes do not deceive you!!, why let a ceiling joist get in the way of the pattern you want for your downlights, so far as I could tell this idiot had removed about 75% of the joist rather than cut a new hole in a safer place OMG!, I then had retrace my steps, bit like a mine field Pray that I did not tread on another like it!!

I've told this chap that this needs to be disconnected from circuit ASAP, and all the downlights need to be either upgraded/firehood/removed before any insulation is installed

So far as I could tell every bedroom has them, and must be 40+, to me it looks as if the cost of sorting this lot out will outweigh any insulation saving for several years, any thoughts on cost effective solutions to this one?

 

[batty]

Damn lucky they didn't have a fire thats lathe and plaster isn't it.

 

[Robojin]

Damn lucky they didn't have a fire thats lathe and plaster isn't it.

Yes, seems these were installed 10+ years ago, thinking low energy or possibly LED but both going to be costly, frankly I'm thinking take the lot out and revert to pendants, upgrade bathroom to fire rated

Can you imagine just putting 400mm of loftwool down bad day explode

 

[batty]

Yes, seems these were installed 10+ years ago, thinking low energy or possibly LED but both going to be costly, frankly I'm thinking take the lot out and revert to pendants, upgrade bathroom to fire ratedCan you imagine just putting 400mm of loftwool down bad day explode

Not a good idea with lath and plaster.

 

[PC Electrics]

Yes, seems these were installed 10+ years ago, thinking low energy or possibly LED but both going to be costly, frankly I'm thinking take the lot out and revert to pendants, upgrade bathroom to fire ratedCan you imagine just putting 400mm of loftwool down bad day explode

Before I give a fuller reply, why do you believe changing them to "fire rated" will resolve the problem of the fire danger presented by covering the lights in insulation?

 

[green-hornet]

Its a wonder a major fire has not started.

That is absolute shoddy work and should never have been allowed to be put into service.

Should a fire start, even with the insurance cover, you would not get a payout from the insurance because the lights have not been installed to manufacturers instructions, and in compliance with building regulations.

There is only 1 cheap way to recover this, and that is to revert to pendants like you say.

The cost to remove,replace and still comply with Part L of the building regs just would not be feasable unless they had loads of spare cash to throw away.

The damage to the ceilings would have to be repaired so even the cheap option is still going to cost more. X(

 

[Robojin]

Before I give a fuller reply, why do you believe changing them to "fire rated" will resolve the problem of the fire danger presented by covering the lights in insulation?

Frankly I don't, I'd like to remove the lot, but likely the customer will want to keep them, if I had the job I'd go for a solution that keeps the insulation off completely

But again we have the insulation paradox now at 400mm, as I said always open to safest suggestions/solutions

 

[Lurch]

A fire rated downlighter doesn't reduce the risk of overheating from having insulation piled on it. Might as well just leave them as they are rather than fit something that still isn;t satisfactory.

 

[Robojin]

A fire rated downlighter doesn't reduce the risk of overheating from having insulation piled on it. Might as well just leave them as they are rather than fit something that still isn;t satisfactory.

Completely agree, was just mulling ideas over in my head on forum paper so to speak

The one bedroom I happened to go into had 12x 230v did not switch them on but would not surprise me if they were 12x 50watt on a single dimmer , how many are on the same 6A circuit :_|

As I said I was there for a completely different quote and just stumbled over this

 

[androiduk2002]

Down lights really worry me, what is the recommended method of avoiding insulation when it comes to down lights ?

Is it as simple as a plaster board box built and fitted over the top allowing for the max height as per manufacturers instructions ?

 

[Lurch]

Down lights really worry me, what is the recommended method of avoiding insulation when it comes to down lights ? Is it as simple as a plaster board box built and fitted over the top allowing for the max height as per manufacturers instructions ?

Depends on the job, either don;t put insulation over the light, use a light that can be covered (e.g. LED), stick a piece of 4" soil pipe round the light to make like a chimney, build a box as you say, or use a flowerpot. Probably other methods as well.

 

[PC Electrics]

Not sure if I'm reading this correctly - can you clarify:

Have you looked at all the downlights and found just 2 that are next to joists

or

have you not inspected the downlights and have just found these 2 by chance?

If the latter, are we thus infering that there may well be more like this?

****************

I'm not sure if you are or not, but there seems to be a misunderstanding amongst many that the term "fire rated" when applied to a downlight means that it is not capable of starting a fire and can thus be covered in insulation. This is not so.

The term means that the light unit is so designed to prevent the passage of fire from one side of the mounting surface to the other. This is usually achieved by having a canister behind the light which contains an intumescent material, which will expand and fill the can in the event of fire, thus preventing its transmission through the hole.

In normal operation the can usually has cooling holes in its top and it is just as important not to cover the light with insulation as it is with standard units. Covering a fire rated downlighter can cause it to overheat just the same as any other.

There are products you can buy to place over lights to keep insulation off, but they tend to cost about

 

[androiduk2002]

Depends on the job, either don;t put insulation over the light, use a light that can be covered (e.g. LED), stick a piece of 4" soil pipe round the light to make like a chimney, build a box as you say, or use a flowerpot. Probably other methods as well.

I like the 4" soil pipe idea , allows the heat out at least

 

[PC Electrics]

The problem with the soil pipe idea is that it allows cold drafts to pass downward through the lights. I use this method though, for passing shower (and other) cables through the insulation layer.

I have used flower pots in the past.

 

[Lurch]

If you're using flowerpots put a couple of battens across the joists to support the weight rather than just plonking them on the plasterboard.

 

[Robojin]

Not sure if I'm reading this correctly - can you clarify:Have you looked at all the downlights and found just 2 that are next to joists

or

have you not inspected the downlights and have just found these 2 by chance?

If the latter, are we thus infering that there may well be more like this?

****************

I'm not sure if you are or not, but there seems to be a misunderstanding amongst many that the term "fire rated" when applied to a downlight means that it is not capable of starting a fire and can thus be covered in insulation. This is not so.

The term means that the light unit is so designed to prevent the passage of fire from one side of the mounting surface to the other. This is usually achieved by having a canister behind the light which contains an intumescent material, which will expand and fill the can in the event of fire, thus preventing its transmission through the hole.

In normal operation the can usually has cooling holes in its top and it is just as important not to cover the light with insulation as it is with standard units. Covering a fire rated downlighter can cause it to overheat just the same as any other.

There are products you can buy to place over lights to keep insulation off, but they tend to cost about

 

[Megaohm7]

Downlighters do give me cause for concern there are many reasons for this and a few have been mentioned in this post . My main concern is the way they are installed in the first place . D.I.Y installers rarely take in consideration like insulation and how hot the lamps themselves get and of course the transformers being buried in insulation . I have seen first hand the problems that can arise from bad installation of these fittings Pray

 

[Robojin]

I like the 4" soil pipe idea , allows the heat out at least

I was at a Safety Council presentation on downlights last year, they highlighted that plastic flower pots :| were not a good idea as had been found on one fire investigation, so I think that might rule out soil pipe

Like Lurch I have used large terracotta pots in the past

 

[androiduk2002]

Thanks for the plasterboard box suggestions, mind you can imagine the insulation installer working around these or just removing them

Unfortunatly you probably cant be there when they do the insulation, all you can do is make sure what you do is safe , if they remove anything you have done, the liability will lie in there hands then, all you could do if its not to far from you is pay a visit once the insulation is done to check they havent interfered with your work .

 

[The Godfather]

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplmisc/rpt1464.pdf

The Godfather