Re-training, with some past experience

[DonClif]

Hi Guys,

I have recently been retraining to become an DEI electrician with Access Training, I was a bit dubious about the course at first but it's been a lot more in depth than I was expecting and with a good amount of self motivation I seem to be getting along well. There is also a practical section with 5 days of tests at the end, so it's a bit more than the other online only courses I've researched.
I have a pretty decent amount of electrical experience (for a mortal) from working as multi-trade alongside a very helpful electrician who taught me all the basics, eg. installing a ring final, a radial, wiring a CU, and a bit of the maths involved in selecting cable and protective devices.

My plan is to go self employed and eventually get on a CPS, I have been networking with local small electrical firms to offer labour and gain as much extra experience as I can, one of which was happy to help out and send some work my way.

my 2 questions are:
1. Does this sound like an acceptable path into the industry?

2. Does a 'Domestic Electrical Installer' course completely limit me to dwellings? eg. In the future, could I extend a ring final in a business unit? as I have already been offered this job based on the person knowing my previous work, but am unsure whether i legally could do the job, or not.

Thanks for any help or advice

 

[Sharpend]

List the courses that you will come out with, many of these ‘training’ courses offer limited worthwhile qualifications to actually progress to being fully qualified but until we know what you are doing it’s difficult to comment.

 

[DonClif]

List the courses that you will come out with, many of these ‘training’ courses offer limited worthwhile qualifications to actually progress to being fully qualified but until we know what you are doing it’s difficult to comment.

That's fair, I should have added that in:

• LCL Awards Domestic Electrical Installer (DEI) Qualification
• Level 3 Certificate in the Building Regulations for Electrical Installations in Dwellings
• Level 3 Award in Requirements for Electrical Installations
• Level 3 Portable Appliance Testing (PAT) Qualification
• Level 3 Award in the Initial Verification and Certification of Electrical Installations
• Level 2 Certificate in Fundamental Inspection & Testing
• Level 3 Award in Periodic Inspection, Testing & Certification of Electrical Installations
• Level 3 Certificate in Installing, Testing and Ensuring Compliance of Electrical Installation in Dwellings
• 
  
• Level 3 Award in the Requirements for the Installation of Electric Vehicle Charging Points
• Level 4 Award in the Design and Verification of Electrical Installations

Thanks.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

My plan is to go self employed and eventually get on a CPS,

but am unsure whether i legally could do the job, or not.

Thanks for any help or advice

Have you researched the options for joining a CPS?
i.e. what C&G qualifications they require compared to the qualifications you have?

You didn't actually mention any C&G numbers with your qualifications list?

What did your course cover on the legalities of BS7671 in relation to other statutory acts?

Qualifications are only one aspect of being competent to undertake electrical work....
You also need to be considering what insurance cover you have in place for the work you plan to undertake.

Often businesses prefer to work with VAT registered companies...
and/or members of specific trades bodies...

 

[Sharpend]

If you can list the EAL/C&G numbers with the relevant course then will have a better idea as to where you are at.

 

[DonClif]

Have you researched the options for joining a CPS?
i.e. what C&G qualifications they require compared to the qualifications you have?
You didn't actually mention any C&G numbers with your qualifications list?
I have done some research and it seems the LCL awards are accepted, but I need to do some more research as to what exactly the qualification numbers are. I'll contact the course provider and get back to you on that one if you don't mind.

What did your course cover on the legalities of BS7671 in relation to other statutory acts?
If I understand the question correctly, they have made it clear that BS7671 is non-statutory, but that following the guidance and information in the book will put you in the best place to be in line with most other statutory acts. Whilst also keeping to any regulations in the statutory acts.

You also need to be considering what insurance cover you have in place for the work you plan to undertake.
I worked for myself while doing commercial multi-trade, so I understand the necessity for the correct insurance and cover, I haven't looked into this in detail yet, as I am not planning on starting work until April '24, so I have plenty of time to get that sorted.

Often businesses prefer to work with VAT registered companies...
and/or members of specific trades bodies...
I have heard this before, and I can understand why, If I was to look at commercial work it would be on a small scale for smaller businesses.

 

[DonClif]

Access training got back to me with specifics, I have yet to check against a CPS, but here are the qualification codes:

03/0149/1A - Building Regs

603/3298/OB - 18th

600/4340/4 - PAT

603/0144/2 - Fund

603/4337/4 - Initial Verification

600/4338/6 - Condition Reporting

Also I was told to see the attached picture regarding the 'QSQ'

Does this make sense?

 

[Sharpend]

Sorry to say DC those course numbers do not correspond to EAL or CG and therefore I’m inclined to say you’ve been sold a herring.
There is nothing there that actually gives you an understanding of how to design circuits, cable requirements, earth sizing etc etc. also known as the fundamentals of electrical installations.
What you have been sold is A How To get you foot in the door. You will have some understanding of how to test but will you know what the results are actually telling you other than Pass/Fail ?
I don’t know what you have paid for this lot but if you do some searching online you will find many a story of how these training providers sell little for a lot on a false pretence.

What you have is the ability to join the cowboy EICR test brigade m-search them too and you will also find that these are a scam/sham.


Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

 

[DonClif]

Sorry to say DC those course numbers do not correspond to EAL or CG and therefore I’m inclined to say you’ve been sold a herring.
There is nothing there that actually gives you an understanding of how to design circuits, cable requirements, earth sizing etc etc. also known as the fundamentals of electrical installations.
What you have been sold is A How To get you foot in the door. You will have some understanding of how to test but will you know what the results are actually telling you other than Pass/Fail ?
I don’t know what you have paid for this lot but if you do some searching online you will find many a story of how these training providers sell little for a lot on a false pretence.

What you have is the ability to join the cowboy EICR test brigade m-search them too and you will also find that these are a scam/sham.


Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Obviously I don't know about the qualifications themselves, or I wouldn't be asking. But the course content itself has covered circuit design including calculating the Ib, In, Iz, all of the derating factors, volt drop, adiabatic equation, etc.
They have covered earthing and bonding, and Ze, Zs, and the PEFC/PSCC.

My point being that it isn't a general skim of basic electrical work, with the ability to be a button pusher on a MFT.
I find it confusing that so much depth would be put into a course that means nothing.

And as to what I paid, waaay to much for it to effectively get me nowhere.
I've learned a massive amount either way, but s**t that's a bit worrying...

 

[DonClif]

Obviously I don't know about the qualifications themselves, or I wouldn't be asking. But the course content itself has covered circuit design including calculating the Ib, In, Iz, all of the derating factors, volt drop, adiabatic equation, etc.
They have covered earthing and bonding, and Ze, Zs, and the PEFC/PSCC.

My point being that it isn't a general skim of basic electrical work, with the ability to be a button pusher on a MFT.
I find it confusing that so much depth would be put into a course that means nothing.

And as to what I paid, waaay to much for it to effectively get me nowhere.
I've learned a massive amount either way, but s**t that's a bit worrying...

To add to this:
I have done some searching (which I obviously should have done in the first place), and I've found almost all of the qualification codes on the EAL website:

https://eal.org.uk/quals-finder/qua...nts-for-electrical-installations-bs-7671-2018
Plus the attached screenshot from an EAL document.

I'm not just trying to argue my case, I'm genuinely concerned that I'm partially wasting my time.

Any advice is massively appreciated, even if it's brutal.
Thanks

 

[poni]

"It provides a facility for individuals working in the electrotechnical sector to develop and/or enhance their knowledge of the Requirements for Electrical Installation."
it looks like its for people that are already working in the game and have done something like the C&G 236 1+2. or AM2

 

[Sharpend]

The courses that you have highlighted are generally seen as a bolt on to furthering your testing knowledge, having gained the Electrical Installation qualifications first.

It’s akin to doing the A levels before the GCSE, you will learn something but will not have the full background understanding.

These course providers have taken what should be an advancement for existing electricians and sold it as a means to becoming an electrician in the hope that the student can fake it until they make it.

Consider this; All these type of trainers sell this as a Domestic Installers qualifications, however any properly trained electrician would be able to do Domestic commercial and industrial because Electrics is Electrics irrelevant of the location, so why are you only gaining a Domestic qualification?
This I suspect is because DIY DAVE believes they can do electrics because it’s a couple of cables and connect together and it works then it must be correct, in most instances it isn’t and just because it works doesn’t mean it’s correct.

Have you asked your trainer if you would be able to go and do Commercial and Industrial installations? I’d be interested in their answer myself.

 

[mort2376]

Having bought one of these electricians courses out of curiosity I would say they are not worth the time you invest in them.

You cannot expect to pass a technical course by sitting a 30/40 minute exam with multiple guess questions which my 12yo could make a reasonable attempt at answering and it be valid.

Most of these courses allow you multiple goes at a "practice exam" which you can take without actually watching any of the "classroom" videos.

Try doing that and seeing the quality of the questions. These will give you an idea on the quality of the course.

If I were you I would contact Napit or Niceic and speak to them. I know Napit will take previous experience into account and will give you a tailored path (obviously training with them) which will qualify you.

If your working outside of domestic then there are no rules like part p that say what you can and can't do. It's down to your own competence and insurance.

Most companies require a minimum of 5million pli while domestic the requirement for Most schemes is 2million.

Sorry to not be able to give you a positive answer.

 

[DonClif]

All these type of trainers sell this as a Domestic Installers qualifications, however any properly trained electrician would be able to do Domestic commercial and industrial because Electrics is Electrics irrelevant of the location, so why are you only gaining a Domestic qualification

This was my original thinking, electrical work is all electrical work, as in an added spur basically doesn't change if it happens to be in a business property.
So you make a good point about it being marketed as a 'domestic' course.
I need to have a word with my trainer like you say.
Thanks

 

[Sharpend]

What you need to ask is what was the remit for gaining entry onto the course and you want it in writing from them not their website.
Also see what advertising they have on their website regards the qualifications and what it allows you to do.

 

[DonClif]

Having bought one of these electricians courses out of curiosity I would say they are not worth the time you invest in them.

You cannot expect to pass a technical course by sitting a 30/40 minute exam with multiple guess questions which my 12yo could make a reasonable attempt at answering and it be valid.

Most of these courses allow you multiple goes at a "practice exam" which you can take without actually watching any of the "classroom" videos.

Try doing that and seeing the quality of the questions. These will give you an idea on the quality of the course.

If I were you I would contact Napit or Niceic and speak to them. I know Napit will take previous experience into account and will give you a tailored path (obviously training with them) which will qualify you.

If your working outside of domestic then there are no rules like part p that say what you can and can't do. It's down to your own competence and insurance.

Most companies require a minimum of 5million pli while domestic the requirement for Most schemes is 2million.

Thanks for the Napit/NICEIC advice, I didn't know that was a possible option.

Sorry to not be able to give you a positive answer.

I need realistic, not positive, so cheers

 

[Sharpend]

Great attitude DC

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

My plan is to go self employed and eventually get on a CPS,

As Mort suggests find at what bodies such as NICEIC / NAPIT are now requiring for membership...

They used to list various C&G course number that were needed for entry,
But I've just had a quick google and couldn't find it now?

AFAIK during recent years the various CPS bodies have had their knuckles wrapped about allowing in too many semi-skilled short-course trained members who basically had little or no previous working experience, minimal practical reasonable sized jobs to use as examples of their work..
(heard stories of people just using an additional socket in a shed or other minor works.. -vs- a complete rewire and/or consumer unit replacement.)
and were basically just a new business start-up..

When Part-P was first introduced around 2005/6, entry to the newly introduced domestic membership required a business to have been trading for at least two years, with samples of work & certificates etc to be used along side the qualifications, documents, insurance, calibrated meters etc..

So I think the CPS's were told to tighten their entry requirements up a bit..!

Probably good to make enquires with both saying you are looking toward joining later in the year and trying to find out entry requirements costs etc....

Remember: NAPIT NICEIC etc.. are non-essential, optional industry trades bodies, that you can choose to join if you so wish..
But you don't have to!! (there are other alternatives)

So Your are their customer.. you do NOT have to join them...
As the customer you are the one with the purchasing power, they are the ones trying to sell you an optional product!

As you make your enquiries keep in mind an old school business phrase: "The Customer Is King", they are the ones with the money!

( Its a bit like choosing AA, RAC, Green Flag or none at all , to assist you in the event of a vehicle break down. )

https://niceic.com/join-us/

https://www.napit.org.uk/schemes/competent-person-scheme.aspx

 

[DonClif]

As Mort suggests find at what bodies such as NICEIC / NAPIT are now requiring for membership...

They used to list various C&G course number that were needed for entry,
But I've just had a quick google and couldn't find it now?

AFAIK during recent years the various CPS bodies have had their knuckles wrapped about allowing in too many semi-skilled short-course trained members who basically had little or no previous working experience, minimal practical reasonable sized jobs to use as examples of their work..
(heard stories of people just using an additional socket in a shed or other minor works.. -vs- a complete rewire and/or consumer unit replacement.)
and were basically just a new business start-up..

When Part-P was first introduced around 2005/6, entry to the newly introduced domestic membership required a business to have been trading for at least two years, with samples of work & certificates etc to be used along side the qualifications, documents, insurance, calibrated meters etc..

So I think the CPS's were told to tighten their entry requirements up a bit..!

Probably good to make enquires with both saying you are looking toward joining later in the year and trying to find out entry requirements costs etc....

Remember: NAPIT NICEIC etc.. are non-essential, optional industry trades bodies, that you can choose to join if you so wish..
But you don't have to!! (there are other alternatives)

So Your are their customer.. you do NOT have to join them...
As the customer you are the one with the purchasing power, they are the ones trying to sell you an optional product!

As you make your enquiries keep in mind an old school business phrase: "The Customer Is King", they are the ones with the money!

( Its a bit like choosing AA, RAC, Green Flag or none at all , to assist you in the event of a vehicle break down. )

https://niceic.com/join-us/

https://www.napit.org.uk/schemes/competent-person-scheme.aspx

I have just got off the phone with NAPIT, who where very helpful, they recognise all of the qualifications I listed bar the Building Regs and PAT (obviously they don't care much about PAT) so that's the good news. The bad news is that, as has been mentioned here, I will not have a core level 3 qualification.

They recommended getting back in touch with Access and either putting in a complaint for being mis-sold the course, or asking if they can provide a core qualification that would put me in the position to be on a CPS in the future, even if I don't choose to join up at all.
By nature I am no cowboy, and i obviously want the pieces of paper to back that up.

 

[Sharpend]

That is where lobbying your local MP may be helpful, however I suspect that you would need many more in your position to support you.