Solar predicament

[Vagabondrobb]

Hi all,

In need of some quick advice. We live out in the middle of nowhere in sw Scotland, which makes getting any tradesperson let alone a MCS certified solar engineer to come out and visit us, difficult!

Anyhow, last March (after long talks from my Swedish friend and solar/renewable energy enthusiast) I went ahead and bought 24 Canadian panels for a 10kw array which I built as a timber framed construction, cemented into the ground. The plan was to get all the gear and set everything up, before getting an engineer to “plug it in”. This is basically what he did in Sweden. I soon realised just how complicated this was going to be in the UK.

I did find an engineer who was helping us and made an application to Scottish Power, and was in the middle of designing a setup, but he has basically just walked away saying he’s reducing his workload.

So basically I have an offer from Scottish Power to G100 limiting to 3.6kw, a timber framed ground mounted array (which probably doesn’t meet MCS and has been up for a year now), and no engineer to or company willing to take the job on (that I can find yet).

The offer from Scottish power expires on the 7th June, and I have no idea if I should accept it and pay the £750, or if I actually need to make a new application based on a system that doesn’t feed back in to the grid and doesn’t require MCS. We have always planned on a system with batteries so not feeding back to the grid isn’t a deal breaker.

Does anyone know much about the DNO applications, or can offer some general advice? I’m sure there must be other people who have just mounted panels themselves?

Many thanks,

Robb

 

[binky]

I'm not familiar with Scottish power and the way they work @ProDave is the man for that.

In England, there's absolutely no need for MCS registered company to install anything.

Export limitation is a common feature on most inverters these days, so that's not an issue. As a limited export system you should be able to use a G98 or G99 application. In England there's no fees for those, or at least not in my region.

Nothing wrong with building your own frame, if not wanting MCS it's not an issue.

Hopefully someone with more Scottish knowledge will be along soon.

 

[Vagabondrobb]

Thanks binky.

I've had conflicting opinions on MCS, and was even told that I couldn't connect to the grid if the entire installation wasn't MCS. Personally I'd rather do the groundwork myself and pay a contractor to do a days work connecting stuff up and signing it off, but I know that's unusual and not really catered for.

I've attached the offer from SPEN if that's useful information.

 

[binky]

The trouble with being MCS registered, is that if they sign off a system they are legally responsible for all of it, and MCS insist registered contractors use only MCS registered equipment, including frames. So when you have built your own frame, they can't comply with the requirements of MCS, which can make life difficult if that's picked up at the annual audit . It's also not a cheap system to run, hence some of the prices they charge, apart from demand outstripping supply this and last year. So it's in their interests of keeping life simple not to get involved with anything that could cause them trouble. For instance, quite a few companies won't touch slate roofs because they are far harder than concrete tiles and take an extra half day to work on.

 

[Murdoch]

There are so many DIY installs it’s hard to see the DNOs clamping down like this.

No MCS = no FIT

 

[hoodfarm]

Hi all,

In need of some quick advice. We live out in the middle of nowhere in sw Scotland, which makes getting any tradesperson let alone a MCS certified solar engineer to come out and visit us, difficult!

Anyhow, last March (after long talks from my Swedish friend and solar/renewable energy enthusiast) I went ahead and bought 24 Canadian panels for a 10kw array which I built as a timber framed construction, cemented into the ground. The plan was to get all the gear and set everything up, before getting an engineer to “plug it in”. This is basically what he did in Sweden. I soon realised just how complicated this was going to be in the UK.

I did find an engineer who was helping us and made an application to Scottish Power, and was in the middle of designing a setup, but he has basically just walked away saying he’s reducing his workload.

So basically I have an offer from Scottish Power to G100 limiting to 3.6kw, a timber framed ground mounted array (which probably doesn’t meet MCS and has been up for a year now), and no engineer to or company willing to take the job on (that I can find yet).

The offer from Scottish power expires on the 7th June, and I have no idea if I should accept it and pay the £750, or if I actually need to make a new application based on a system that doesn’t feed back in to the grid and doesn’t require MCS. We have always planned on a system with batteries so not feeding back to the grid isn’t a deal breaker.

Does anyone know much about the DNO applications, or can offer some general advice? I’m sure there must be other people who have just mounted panels themselves?

Many thanks,

Robb

Hi Robb, Commiserations to you there ,Im at the opposite end of the UK ,West Cornwall. im fortunate enough to have a system installed in 2012, however like your self I intended to use another building on the farm off grid and with a ground based array constructed by myself,
Not rocket science as you will appreciate. However finding someone to facilitate the crucial installation options has proved impossible, most companies /individuals dont even answer approaches by phone or mail..
We know why I suspect ! the industry is maxed out and key men are busy ,too busy as well as scarce. Is that not the case in most of our trades?
Crucially for myself at least the realization of depending on an off grid supply with no one to call out when or if necessary effectively kills the project for us.

This is of no help to yourself I acknowledge, maybe from this forum some well meaning engineer will step up and facilitate your set up,in the spirit that once invoked the solar innovations and adoptions around the globe. I would like to think so.. atb Alan

 

[ProDave]

For 3.6kW do it as G98 I think it is, I am not up to speed with the new numbering, the one where you can install it and register afterwards. Select the right inverter and you can probably connect half your panels, about 5kW to a 3.6kW inverter that will get automatic permission.

Then talk to the DNO for a quote for more power. If it is anything like here they start talking ££££ for network upgrades if you go 1 watt above 3.6kW

It does NOT have to be MCS for simple connection to the grid, you only need that if you want to be paid for export, then you will run into the problem that no MCS company will install or connect something they have not supplied.

Why did you buy 10kW of panels? 3.6kW is pretty easy to self use all that you generate so you are not bothered about export payments. If you did connect all 10kW much of it would just get exported and you would get no payment.

Is another option a hybrid inverter with a lot of battery capacity but an inverter output limited to 3.6kW? I am not up to speed with how that works, could you have such a setup where all 10kW you generate gets stored and only "let out" at a maximum of 3.6kW?

The rules in Scotland are the same as the rest of the UK but obviously different DNO's may be easier or harder to deal with.

 

[binky]

Hi Robb, Commiserations to you there ,Im at the opposite end of the UK ,West Cornwall. im fortunate enough to have a system installed in 2012, however like your self I intended to use another building on the farm off grid and with a ground based array constructed by myself,
Not rocket science as you will appreciate. However finding someone to facilitate the crucial installation options has proved impossible, most companies /individuals dont even answer approaches by phone or mail..
We know why I suspect ! the industry is maxed out and key men are busy ,too busy as well as scarce. Is that not the case in most of our trades?
Crucially for myself at least the realization of depending on an off grid supply with no one to call out when or if necessary effectively kills the project for us.

This is of no help to yourself I acknowledge, maybe from this forum some well meaning engineer will step up and facilitate your set up,in the spirit that once invoked the solar innovations and adoptions around the globe. I would like to think so.. atb Alan

There's nothing stopping you from doing the whole job yourself, and as you are off-grid, I would consider a small wind turbine to help keep batteries topped up mid winter.

 

[Vagabondrobb]

For 3.6kW do it as G98 I think it is, I am not up to speed with the new numbering, the one where you can install it and register afterwards. Select the right inverter and you can probably connect half your panels, about 5kW to a 3.6kW inverter that will get automatic permission.

Then talk to the DNO for a quote for more power. If it is anything like here they start talking ££££ for network upgrades if you go 1 watt above 3.6kW

It does NOT have to be MCS for simple connection to the grid, you only need that if you want to be paid for export, then you will run into the problem that no MCS company will install or connect something they have not supplied.

Why did you buy 10kW of panels? 3.6kW is pretty easy to self use all that you generate so you are not bothered about export payments. If you did connect all 10kW much of it would just get exported and you would get no payment.

Is another option a hybrid inverter with a lot of battery capacity but an inverter output limited to 3.6kW? I am not up to speed with how that works, could you have such a setup where all 10kW you generate gets stored and only "let out" at a maximum of 3.6kW?

The rules in Scotland are the same as the rest of the UK but obviously different DNO's may be easier or harder to deal with.

Thanks ProDave,

Good to clear this MCS business up. So difficult to find definitive information about any of this online - and the energy companies (at least SPEN) seem totally unequipped to help or advise.

The 10kw panels was a decision made together with 10kw battery storage and a 3.6kw feed back to grid - 2 or possibly 3 inverters. That was the idea. I’ve only got as far as the panels/array due to all the difficulties. We run a self catering accommodation business, so our electricity bills are very high - and we have lots of space! If we can’t get paid for feeding back due to not being MCS compliant, then I’d be happy to just have everything either get used as it comes or put into the batteries. Could I use 2 x 5kw hybrid inverters and limit the grid connected one to 0? Not ideal but I’m not pulling down my array and paying thousands for a new one. Plus i Designed it so that I also have a very long shed!

 

[binky]

Ok, naughty advice, do the 3.6kw as per G98 so that complies with notifying DNO. Then do the rest as zero export. NB, you will need a data connection to the incoming meter tails for a CT clamp or meter

 

[Andy1733]

As already has been said. There's not a chance of getting a MCS installer to do half a job (not designing and supplying)
I'm no expert and others will probably correct my post but IMO I would set up 4kwh of panels to a 3.6kwh inverter and apply for the g98 application. sparky can sign this off.
The rest of the panels and the battery's on its own inverter off grid (no export)
Or go for a g99 application though after reading this forum for several months there is a limitation on what they will accept

 

[Vagabondrobb]

So an update on the predicament... SPEN have come back and told us that we will require MCS approval before connecting any load to the grid, even if limiting to zero. So unless I can either find an MCS contractor to certify the array (pigs might fly), or rebuild it altogether, an option I'm not entertaining, we are a bit screwed. Why a ground mounted array needs MCS approval and why it's anything to do with SPEN is beyond me. If the panels get blown off in a storm, does that in any way cause an issue for the grid? I don't know the answer to that, but imagine the answer is no. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Anyhow, I'm thinking that with a 10 kw array and adequate battery storage, we probably could be off-grid for summer months and probably some of spring and autumn. We have a manual transfer switch for our backup generator - could we theoretically hook up an off grid system to the switch and do a manual transfer as and when needed? We are also planning on getting an electric car (if we can get the solar up and running), so I could have a separate circuit on the off grid system for charging, allowing us to make use of anything generated in darker months, when we are connected to the grid.

Does that sound feesable, or am I being silly?

Cheers!

Robb

 

[Andy1733]

3rd option. See above.

 

[Vagabondrobb]

3rd option. See above.

It's a good idea, but I still won't be able to G98 without MCS. According to SPEN they require MCS approval for any load connected to grid.

 

[Andy1733]

Again I'm no expert and others will comment.
I got g98 and the system was signed off by a sparky. Not mcs registered. A few others have also

 

[Vagabondrobb]

Again I'm no expert and others will comment.
I got g98 and the system was signed off by a sparky. Not mcs registered. A few others have also

Yeah, I think its down to the DNO. Others on here have also said no MCS required to connect/feed back to grid, so it must be the case in a lot of places, but apparently not here!

 

[binky]

It's a good idea, but I still won't be able to G98 without MCS. According to SPEN they require MCS approval for any load connected to grid.

That's drivel, MCS don't approve anything to do with the grid

Just put an application in to spen and see what happens

 

[stuboy]

Yep totally agree with Binky, the rules state competent person, so an appropriately trained spark fits in that category.
Send it! ;-)

 

[Vagabondrobb]

We have already sent application and they have sent offer (to g100), but my MCS guy ******** off, probably because he realised he couldn’t certify the array.

I’ve been in an excruciating back and forth with with the person responsible for our case at SPEN, who just keeps repeating that they cannot approve anything without MCS. It’s like talking to a broken record player.

Pretty close to shooting myself in the face.

 

[binky]

We have already sent application and they have sent offer (to g100), but my MCS guy ******** off, probably because he realised he couldn’t certify the array.

I’ve been in an excruciating back and forth with with the person responsible for our case at SPEN, who just keeps repeating that they cannot approve anything without MCS. It’s like talking to a broken record player.

Pretty close to shooting myself in the face.

Ahhh, the jobsworth! Used to encounter one of those on a regular basis. Right pita he was, the rest of the team were brilliant and super helpful.

Complain to his boss. It's exactly the same process as a ' new connection' and you certainly don't need MCS for that.