VDE Tools

[mort2376]

I think alot does have to do with the interpretation of the rules.
Blanket rules are not blanket rules, but for ease are used as such.

I had the DNO putting a new supply in. One team comes and digs the holes. Jointing team comes to to the joints. They have hiviz as working by a road, but a manger drove by and they got an angry phone call for not wearing hard hats.

There was nothing overhead, their heads were above the level of the hole at all times. Why is that a h&s need ? Perhaps it was incase it went bang and the explosion threw them out of the hole but then none of them had strapped on hard hats so that wouldn't have worked !!!!!

 

[poni]

H&S ha,
I seen over the years things change, its all to do with percentages , when I started you could wear you own clothes on any site, if it was a dirty site then you may have had a change of clothes to go home in, HI-VIS wasn't a thing and the only people that wore overalls were engine drivers and car mechanic's

back to percentages, as H&S kicked in (as such) we started to wear steel top-caped boots as the percentages of site accidents where to do with the feet ( things being dropped on their toes) so the percentage of foot related accidents went down, but now the percentage of people standing on Nails went up ( there were no more accidents than before but as toe injuries fell, this made the nail injuries percentage go up ) so now the boots needed sole plates, and the next being hit by a moving object, so we have to wear HI-VIS clothes, then it was the turn of head injuries to be top of the list, so hard hats, then hand injuries, so we now ware gloves and now eye injuries so glasses


with H&S the company is 100% at fault, , what ever they have done its was not enough, because some has been hurt at work, all they can done is try to limit their reasonability by send us on H&S course's and implement the wearing of PPE, this will reduces their percentage of the liability for the accident/injury,


I have seen two people out in a field miles from anywhere, just blue sky above them ,setting out for a new quarry, both in full HI-VIS orange PPE, hats ,glasses and gloves, because it was company policy to do so, it made no sense to me,

 

[binky]

I have seen two people out in a field miles from anywhere, just blue sky above them ,setting out for a new quarry, both in full HI-VIS orange PPE hats ,glasses and gloves, because it was company policy to do so, it made no sense to me,

this is the sort of nonsense I'm digging at.

 

[binky]

What make you think that H&S is only about vehicles, your last sentence is very apt.

that's not what Andy is saying, now are you going to answer my question or not?

 

[Andy™]

this is the sort of nonsense I'm digging at.

should see what some sky 'engineers' are expected to wear when 'working a height' even if its a small step ladder / hop-up. again, lazy blanket policies that don't take the actual situation into account

 

[binky]

should see what some sky 'engineers' are expected to wear when 'working a height' even if its a small step ladder / hop-up. again, lazy blanket policies that don't take the actual situation into account

I've seen it, and was saving it for a later argument

It's the harness that amuses me most, when working 4ft off the ground

 

[UNG]

I've seen it, and was saving it for a later argument

It's the harness that amuses me most, when working 4ft off the ground

But once you leave ground level even if it is just 10mm you are deemed to be working at height, the problem then is the design of the lanyards which are pretty useless until you can attach to something at 2.5 to 3m or higher as the lanyard is 2m long once the shock absorber tears
When I had my rope access tickets some of the requirements and changes to the working at height regs over 10 years or so were laughable and as with BS7671 were clearly designed to generate income for those making the rules and also allow the training to be watered down

 

[Andy™]

But once you leave ground level even if it is just 10mm you are deemed to be working at height, the problem then is the design of the lanyards which are pretty useless until you can attach to something at 2.5 to 3m or higher as the lanyard is 2m long once the shock absorber tears
When I had my rope access tickets some of the requirements and changes to the working at height regs over 10 years or so were laughable and as with BS7671 were clearly designed to generate income for those making the rules and also allow the training to be watered down

see similar a lot. fall arrest with shock absorber but at that height you'll be on the floor before it starts to rip so pretty much useless. and as i mentioned earlier, many not knowing the difference between fall arrest and restraint

 

[Sharpend]

Given that the fall arrest is for safety, it makes you wonder how Bungee jumping was ever permitted? Do they have to have a secondary bungee attached in the event of failure of the first?

 

[UNG]

see similar a lot. fall arrest with shock absorber but at that height you'll be on the floor before it starts to rip so pretty much useless. and as i mentioned earlier, many not knowing the difference between fall arrest and restraint

Many who are using harnesses and fall arrest / restraint have never had any training and the conseqences can be in some circumstances fatal if a fall occurs.

While the dorsal connection point on a harness in some situations can be useful IMO it should never be used for fall arrest as self rescue is virtually impossible and also due to the risk of suspension trauma which generally needs a rescue within 10 minutes as after 17 - 20 minutes hanging face down with pressure on your chest you are likely to be close to death even when rescued there is still risk and the casualty should not laid flat but placed in a sitting "w" position to avoid pooled blood and toxins in the legs causing reflow syndrome

 

[Sharpend]

That’s one thing I never understood with the lanyard being fixed to the rear? Which expert came up with that idea? Or is there a reason it’s not on the front?

 

[Andy™]

Many who are using harnesses and fall arrest / restraint have never had any training and the conseqences can be in some circumstances fatal if a fall occurs.

While the dorsal connection point on a harness in some situations can be useful IMO it should never be used for fall arrest as self rescue is virtually impossible and also due to the risk of suspension trauma which generally needs a rescue within 10 minutes as after 17 - 20 minutes hanging face down with pressure on your chest you are likely to be close to death even when rescued there is still risk and the casualty should not laid flat but placed in a sitting "w" position to avoid pooled blood and toxins in the legs causing reflow syndrome

main reason i only use front points on my harness

 

[Sharpend]

So thinking about that then, how could they justify you dying if it’s caused through the harness being fundamentally wrong by design? Surely there is a claim somewhere in that?

 

[Andy™]

So thinking about that then, how could they justify you dying if it’s caused through the harness being fundamentally wrong by design? Surely there is a claim somewhere in that?

well there shouldn't be an issue since the company will have a rescue plan in place and will have you down well before its an issue...in reality there will most likely be a lot of people with no idea what to do

 

[Sharpend]

well there shouldn't be an issue since the company will have a rescue plan in place and will have you down well before its an issue...in reality there will most likely be a lot of people with no idea what to do

It’s interesting that they don’t come as standard? Surely that’s got to be the case?

 

[UNG]

That’s one thing I never understood with the lanyard being fixed to the rear? Which expert came up with that idea? Or is there a reason it’s not on the front?

There are uses for the rear dorsal connection point in rescue and recovery situations but that is where training comes in. Training for using harnesses is one thing the training for rescuing someone who has had a fall is probably one of the more important factors that is overlooked

 

[UNG]

well there shouldn't be an issue since the company will have a rescue plan in place and will have you down well before its an issue...in reality there will most likely be a lot of people with no idea what to do

The problem is the rescue plan in a suspension trauma incident has to be got underway promptly and it is unlikely dialling 999 will bring the specialist rescue team quick enough to save the casualty
Back when I was doing rope access work we regularly every 3 - 4 months did a half and sometimes a full day of practicing rescue techniques with a target time of 10 minutes to get to the casualty and get them in a safe position

 

[binky]

Many who are using harnesses and fall arrest / restraint have never had any training and the conseqences can be in some circumstances fatal if a fall occurs.

I put some of my guys through training, but don't recall anything about rescue techniques or time limits. As it happens we never actually used harnesses, probably just as well by the sounds of it.

 

[UNG]

I put some of my guys through training, but don't recall anything about rescue techniques or time limits. As it happens we never actually used harnesses, probably just as well by the sounds of it.

In an ideal world a rescue should / may never be needed and you should never put yourself at risk with the correct working and safety procedures in place. A basic harness course fullfills a need it teaches you how to use a fall arrest / fall restraint system safely.
If a rescue is needed it is likely to be caused by someone taking an unneccessary risk or a medical episode but there is also a chance of equipment failure due to poor maintainance or storage so generally it is a very rare event
Having spent many hours on ropes the only rescues I and the lads I was working with did were training excerises just in case an incident occurred as time is of essence in some situations

 

[MikeJhn]

So explain to me how wearing hiviz and hard hats on the roof of a domestic property improves the safety of my staff and/ or customers?

that's not what Andy is saying, now are you going to answer my question or not?

See post 29.