When Is An Emergency Light, Not An Emergency Light?

[steptoe]

Ive got a maintained light in my shed, above the door, do I need a running man sticker on it?  :C

but then it would be a maintained sign, so no good to see anything with,,,,,,,,,

 

[Essex1]

The thing is Essex1, the only people who can undertake the FRA are those responsible for the building & it's FRA.

A spark can only go by the guidance that they are given from the likes of the IET, they cannot undertake the FRA unless they are trained, competent and insured to do such, which very few will be I suspect.

Hence the reliance, very understandably on the guidance given by the IET, which in the absence of an FRA from the duty holder, I suspect would hold water, as long as it was adequately explained.

Oh I agree. Normally a fully compliant installation would be designed properly with communication with the fire officer and sometimes the local fire brigade if the building was deemed big enough. There is clear parts of all emergency lighting certificates asking has the design been carried out. This includes making alterations to existing installations. How can PD, for example correctly sign off the alterations he may well do and not confirm a design has been carried out to ensure compliance in it's entirety with BS5266?

 

[Sidewinder]

Anyone can sign the design part of a certificate if they are competent to do so and in possession of adequate information such that they consider that their design is suitable and sufficient to comply with statute law and other requirements.

 

[Essex1]

Anyone can sign the design part of a certificate if they are competent to do so and in possession of adequate information such that they consider that their design is suitable and sufficient to comply with statute law and other requirements.

Anyone can sign the design part of a certificate if they are competent to do so and in possession of adequate information such that they consider that their design is suitable and sufficient to comply with statute law and other requirements.

That does not really answer the question.

 

[Sidewinder]

Yes it does, the person signing for the design is competent to do so.

 

[NozSpark]

I spec'd it,,,, to make sure that there's light down there if the MCB for that circuit trips so that they dint trip down the stairs to reset it

 

[Essex1]

Yes it does, the person signing for the design is competent to do so.

So being able to sign your name makes you competent? Of course not.

 

[Sidewinder]

Essex,

Did you actually, read, my earlier post?

It is the opposite way around.

By signing the cert, the person is signing to say that they are competent to have undertaken the design, and accepting personal liability for that work, and that the design is compliant, and in accordance with the statements made in the certificate.

 

[Essex1]

Essex,

Did you actually, read, my earlier post?

It is the opposite way around.

By signing the cert, the person is signing to say that they are competent to have undertaken the design, and accepting personal liability for that work, and that the design is compliant, and in accordance with the statements made in the certificate.

Yes I get that part but there needs to be some evidence of the design doesn't there?  You cannot just say I done it in my head.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Yes I get that part but there needs to be some evidence of the design doesn't there?  You cannot just say I done it in my head.

In relation to the original question and ProDaves village hall I would guess the the design probably could be done in the head of a competent person. Using a bit of common sense based on layout and the size of the hall, the positions and heights where lamps are to be mounted and referring to the manufactures specification of the accessories you are fitting, I can't see that there will much call for a multi-page A4 log book or folder full of design spec's and calculations. Even on an electrical certificate when adding a new circuit we do not give fully documented evidence of how we designed the circuit, (which may have been done in the head of the installer), We just give some test results of the finished circuit and sign a declaration saying that we have designed it using reasonable skill and care so that to the best of my/our knowledge it is safe and compliant with the current standards. There is no requirement for evidence with the certificate.

Doc H.

 

[binky]

I asked a friend of mine who is a fuly registered fire assessor about emergency lights with signs this morning. His comments are not repeatable in a family magazine, but needless to say he confirmed that this 'signage non-sense' is rollocks.

Anyone competent of reading said emergency illumination guidance and associated standards would be familiar with the fact that signs v lights does not exist in differentiating from the fact that illumination levels is the defining criteria. From memory that is 1 lumen at floor level, I forget the spread over floor area figures, but is surprisingly feeble in my opinion. How that is achieved is basically irrelevent, whether that be a light shining through a green sticker or not, what matters is the illumination levels to guide occupants of the building out of a safe exit. This could be achieved with fairy lights and a batttery pack if desired as long as the illumination levels are achieved for the appropiate duration of time.

As for competence, being trained as fire assessor doesn't mean competence either, it means someone can pass an exam, same as being a 5ww qualified sparky.... Competence comes from the ability to read, understand and correctly apply appropiate standards to the situation. Recording such information is always a good idea, but,  we generally show compliance by issue of an appropiate certficate which should pick up all salient design points if completed correctly. Signing of said cert is legally accepting responsibility for the design and also demonstrating competence to the client - you wouldn't sign anything unless you felt competent to do so (some would of course but that is another discussion) which is why signing certs should not be undertaken lightly in any circumstances, and should be exercised with great care.

 

[Essex1]

In relation to the original question and ProDaves village hall I would guess the the design probably could be done in the head of a competent person. Using a bit of common sense based on layout and the size of the hall, the positions and heights where lamps are to be mounted and referring to the manufactures specification of the accessories you are fitting, I can't see that there will much call for a multi-page A4 log book or folder full of design spec's and calculations. Even on an electrical certificate when adding a new circuit we do not give fully documented evidence of how we designed the circuit, (which may have been done in the head of the installer), We just give some test results of the finished circuit and sign a declaration saying that we have designed it using reasonable skill and care so that to the best of my/our knowledge it is safe and compliant with the current standards. There is no requirement for evidence with the certificate.

Doc H.

Then the issue will come up when the first inspection is due and part of the inspection is to 'confirm that the ORIGINAL design is still valid'. How can this be done without a documented design?

 

[binky]

that's what the cert is for

 

[Essex1]

that's what the cert is for

Well not really. Actually not at all. The design must be checked at each inspection to verify it is still current. The cert does not provide this information.

 

[Sidewinder]

Now Essex,

I know to what extent and where the design must be documented.

It's not the EM lighting completion certificate, that's for sure.

Do you know where it must be and to what extent it must be documented?...

If so then share it with the rest of the forum, and please, if you can, make me out to be a fool...

 

[binky]

we don't DESIGN emergency lighting systems anyway, we install systems in compliance with regulations and standards written by others.

The cert demonstrates compliance at time of installation. Whether it is still compliant is a totally different issue. That's why the cert is a legally binding document.

 

[Essex1]

SW - I am definitely not attempting to make anyone look a fool. Why would a difference of opinion make you believe that? I am fully aware of your posting style of always saying you know but never actually posting an opinion but as you know my style is to chat to other members as if we were face to face and that means polite debate. Not fool making.

 

[Essex1]

we don't DESIGN emergency lighting systems anyway, we install systems in compliance with regulations and standards written by others.

The cert demonstrates compliance at time of installation. Whether it is still compliant is a totally different issue. That's why the cert is a legally binding document.

Really?

 

[Blue Duck]

.......and did tou know......

The sign with the Man "with the broken leg" running LEFT can only be used if the exit route is to the LEFT

Man "right" can be used for up, down, right and straight ahead

Not a lot of people know that....but it is a fail on an Inspection and Test

Just saying

 

[binky]

SW - I am definitely not attempting to make anyone look a fool. Why would a difference of opinion make you believe that? I am fully aware of your posting style of always saying you know but never actually posting an opinion but as you know my style is to chat to other members as if we were face to face and that means polite debate. Not fool making.

 would be nice if you offered some opinions of your own instead of just picking holes in other peoples responses.