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SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH

Fan isolation

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SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH

Does a fan with an integral pull cord for its only  on-off operation (no timers, stats ect) need an isolator ?

Is it any different to a wall light with a integral pull cord.

 

Asking this to see the  numerous different replies & opinions .

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Zeespark

Slips, I would imagine that the pull cord itself is the isolator, if I am wrong I apologise.

 

AndyGuinness

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ProDave

We have discussed this before, and nobody has shown me where it says we have to fit a fan isolator anyway.

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Doc Hudson

What do the manufactures instructions say?

 

Doc H.

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Geoff1946

Well an isolator often makes maintenance and cleaning easier when you don't have to do it in the dark. 

I've heard said that some landlords don't like them because tenants turn them off for silence  and the property consequently suffers condensation.

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Blue Duck

Integral pullcord won't provide downstream isolation.

 

30 minutes ago, Geoff1946 said:

I've heard said that some landlords don't like them because tenants turn them off for silence  and the property consequently suffers condensation.

 

I once had a whole block where they'd paid someone £10 to disconnect their new humidistat fans which "went on all by themselves".

Needless to say all their ceilings were black with mould!

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Murdoch

Isolator are especially important in situations where bathrooms are adjacent to bedrooms, so they can be switched off at night 

 

I recall there being guidance in the building regs regarding fans and rooms without windows ....

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Evans Electric

I always took it  as  the   "  Local isolation  of an appliance "  reg.    

It seemed to start with  fitting  a spur unit   which often switched the L & N   but  not the  switched trigger wire,   come across loads of those . 

Then it came to pass that the spur isolated the lighting & the fan .  

Then someone came up with a 3 pole switch  .  

 

I think you need to look up Codes of best practice  ,  pretty sure theres nothing in the Regs .

 

As for me , I fit the 3 pole switch , I don't worry about a fuse for the fan if its off the lighting circuit .    

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SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH
3 hours ago, ProDave said:

We have discussed this before, and nobody has shown me where it says we have to fit a fan isolator anyway.

 

We have & there are many places in the regs  such as 537.3.1.1 + many many more but one can always argue the main switch covers all these types of regs. Even so these regs are due to remote starting. If the fan can only be operated by its integral switch  is it any different to a wall light with a switch 

 

Does anyone have BS EN 60204, as i wonder if a 100mm bathroom fan falls under that remit ? 

Edited by SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH

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SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH
2 hours ago, Murdoch said:

Isolator are especially important in situations where bathrooms are adjacent to bedrooms, so they can be switched off at night 

 

I recall there being guidance in the building regs regarding fans and rooms without windows ....

I have  today studied that chapter and it does not mention isolation. Its main concern is if there is natural light, the luminaire will not be turned on so the fan wont, so in those cases a sensor of some sort is needed

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Jono Pashley
20 hours ago, SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH said:

 

We have & there are many places in the regs  such as 537.3.1.1 + many many more but one can always argue the main switch covers all these types of regs. Even so these regs are due to remote starting. If the fan can only be operated by its integral switch  is it any different to a wall light with a switch 

 

Does anyone have BS EN 60204, as i wonder if a 100mm bathroom fan falls under that remit ? 

@Sidewinder Would be the one to ask about 60204.

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Andy™
20 hours ago, SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH said:

 

We have & there are many places in the regs  such as 537.3.1.1 + many many more but one can always argue the main switch covers all these types of regs. Even so these regs are due to remote starting. If the fan can only be operated by its integral switch  is it any different to a wall light with a switch 

 

Does anyone have BS EN 60204, as i wonder if a 100mm bathroom fan falls under that remit ? 

 

not covered by 60204

 

scope

 

Quote

This part of IEC 60204 applies to the application of electrical, electronic and programmable
electronic equipment and systems to machines not portable by hand while working, including
a group of machines working together in a co-ordinated manner

 

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ProDave

I have always believed this is a 60204 reg to have local isolation for a big AC motor to stop the guy replacing a drive belt when  it starts automatically from losing his arm, and has been wrongly applied to a poxy bathroom fan that is not capable of doing any real harm. 

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SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH
1 hour ago, ProDave said:

I have always believed this is a 60204 reg to have local isolation for a big AC motor to stop the guy replacing a drive belt when  it starts automatically from losing his arm, and has been wrongly applied to a poxy bathroom fan that is not capable of doing any real harm. 

 

If that is correct,  does a fan operated only by its integral pullcord need an isolator, a wall light with its own pull cord does not ?

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ProDave
49 minutes ago, SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH said:

 

If that is correct,  does a fan operated only by its integral pullcord need an isolator, a wall light with its own pull cord does not ?

Personally I would not fit one.

 

But I am against fan isolators at all.  The "working in the dark" argument does not cut the mustard with me either, there are ways of working in the dark, otherwise how would you change a loop at light bathroom light fitting?

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Andy™

and what would you do at night when its dark outside?

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ProDave
3 minutes ago, Andy™ said:

and what would you do at night when its dark outside?

Use a lead lamp plugged into a socket, or just my head torch. 

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Andy™

problem solved then, not need for the isolator, you can just do that anytime of the day (or night)

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IzzyS

I agree with ProDave - I've fitted hundreds of bathroom fans (and loft lights) working by new fangled battery LED candle replacements.  It's a non-problem in a domestic environment - it may be slightly inconvenient for the householder, but it's a welcome relief turning off carp on TV like Jeremy Kyle or Judge Rinder 😂

 

As for switching off for regular cleaning, it's up there with cleaning behind the cooker.  Strange that I always seem to arrive the week before they normally do that...

 

 

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Andy™
1 hour ago, IzzyS said:

 

As for switching off for regular cleaning, it's up there with cleaning behind the cooker.  Strange that I always seem to arrive the week before they normally do that...

 

 

 

thats odd, ive done work for them too

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Evans Electric

I took an assessor   ( one of the more pedantic ones )    to a  ground floor  extension , creating a wash & shower room,  and bedroom for a disabled child .   Plus kitchen extension.

The shower room , quite big ,  was a bit dark  .....I'd fitted downlights  , linked to the fan with a light switch  outside in the corridor and a spur  that killed the lighting /fan.    

The 3 pole isolators were just becoming known at the time .

 

This guy was so pedantic , we were there from  lunchtime till about 5.30  after 2 hours in the office.     ( How long does it take to look at a regs book & some insurance docs.)

He homed in on the spur ,saying if it's off theres no light in the room ,  I said well  the builder & I  managed to  install electrics , plaster , tile , fit , all plumbing , fit toilet , shower , basin  ,  floor tiling , mirror, door etc  ..... by plugging in a stand up fluorescent light:C

 

But no ...the maintenance & cleaning of the fan  was of paramount importance    ( Like  every 10 years   :C)      Just to prove his point and I should be adopting 3 pole switches. 

The extension had a loft hatch  and I'd cross bonded the plumbing up there ....didn't like that much  .

I think because of my comments we had to have EVERY  light down , every switch off , every socket off ,  outside lights dropped off and a ALL my tests redone and compared to the test sheet .  

             

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binky

I would say  afan even with a pull cord is still a fan - the isolator isn't there to operate the fan, it's to isolate it for maintenance. If a lamp fails in a light, you are in the dark anyway.

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ProDave
7 minutes ago, binky said:

I would say  afan even with a pull cord is still a fan - the isolator isn't there to operate the fan, it's to isolate it for maintenance. If a lamp fails in a light, you are in the dark anyway.

So if we need an isolator for a poxy bathroom fan, surely we also need an isolator next to each light fitting so we can maintain them ?

 

Nobody has yet quoted what reg or law says a bathroom fan must have an isolator.  It is turning onto one of those urban myths that we "must do it" but nobody has ever seen the rule that says we must.

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Andy™
7 hours ago, ProDave said:

So if we need an isolator for a poxy bathroom fan, surely we also need an isolator next to each light fitting so we can maintain them ?

 

Nobody has yet quoted what reg or law says a bathroom fan must have an isolator.  It is turning onto one of those urban myths that we "must do it" but nobody has ever seen the rule that says we must.

 

you will also need an isolaor next to the isolator so you can do any maintenance on the isolator

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Blue Duck

I think an isolator is a good idea for when the cheap, Chineseium POS spontaneously combusts you can stop your house from burning down.

Providing that you are at home to turn it off!

Perhaps the AFDD things are to compensate for a lack of quality standards in the appliance manufacturing industry?

 

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